NYC principals want credit for grads who enlist

New York City high schools will get bonus points for graduates who go to college, but not the military, reports the New York Post. The points could raise a school’s A-F grade on the annual progress report.

When a principal asked about points for grads who choose to enlist in the armed forces, he was shot down.

“The military isn’t college. It doesn’t count,” the group was told.

In response to principals’ protests, the city education department will start gathering data on graduates who enlist in the military or enter skilled trades for a career section planned for fall, 2013.

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Comments

  1. Michael E. Lopez says:

    Why extra credit for college?

    Why extra credit for anything except general reported life happiness?

    Sigh.

  2. Given that most of those who enlist in the militiary stay for 2 or 3 years (or longer), and most of those who enter the building trades stay for life, this is a much better metric than those who enroll in college, who drop out at rates approachign 50%.

  3. College, trade school, an apprenticeship, or the military should all count as good post-H.S. outcomes. Something that lays out a path for a decent future.

  4. If you’re goal is to have educated citizens, then having students go to college seems like the most relevant option.

    Further, if your goal is to have an educated work force, then you would want your students to go to college.

    For those reasons, it makes sense to give principals credit for having grads go to college.

    Hypothetically, we wouldn’t have much of a work force if everyone enrolled in the military. On that same line of thought, the more people we have enrolling in the military, the less amount of educated people we have joining the work force.

    • Roger Sweeny says:

      You assume that “going to college” means “getting educatied.” But it often doesn’t. Students sit in classes that teach them what it is important to know if you are going to become a professor in that field. They memorize some of what they are told but quickly forget most–or all!–of it after the class is over.

      As far as I’m concerned, that is not education. It is taking classes. There is a big, big difference.

    • Roger Sweeny says:

      It also doesn’t make them any more productive as an employee.

    • Michael E. Lopez says:


      If you’re

      (sic) goal is to have educated citizens, then having students go to college seems like the most relevant option.

      This sentence is false — mostly because it’s tortuously ambiguous and subjective. But it’s also false if you change “seems like” to “is” and assume that the phrase “most relevant option” means something like “best option”.


      (I)f your goal is to have an educated work force, then you would want your students to go to college.

      False. If you wanted your people to be an educated work force, you’d want them to be educated and then go to work. College may or may not play a role in that process.


      For those reasons, it makes sense to give principals credit for having grads go to college.

      I think maybe this sentence is suppose to mean, “Because we do want an educated workforce, and thus want students to go to college, it’s consistent with these desires that we reward principals whose students go to college, because that will cause principals to send more of their students to college.”

      That reading assumes that principals have some degree of control over how many of their students go to college, and also assumes that action by the principals taken in order to increase college enrollment doesn’t actually undermine the outcomes we’re pursuing.

      It also assumes that we have the desires that are required by the first two conditionals you asserted, which happen to be false.

      Because these assumptions aren’t really warranted… we’ll call this one “questionable” rather than false.


      Hypothetically, we wouldn’t have much of a work force if everyone enrolled in the military.

      Ummm… false. I think Quincy took care of this one. I’ll just add one word: Israel.


      On that same line of thought, the more people we have enrolling in the military, the less amount of educated people we have joining the work force.

      This is also false.

      One can be “educated” prior to going into the military.
      One can be “educated” in the military.
      One can be “educated” after being in the military.
      One can even go to college after joining the military, and presumably become “educated” by your standards.

      Now, you obviously can’t just say that their being in the military means that they’re not in the workforce because they are in the military, because people who are in college aren’t in the workforce, either. So you can’t just be talking about the TIME taken up by military service.

      You must be asserting a sort of logical incompatibility between people’s being educated and their being in the military.

      Which is obviously false.

      Look at the bright side: there may not be any true things in your comment, but at least not everything that you said was obviously false.

      • J. D. Salinger says:

        And you’re a self-assured, smug, know-it-all, not to mention a jerk.

        • Don’t mind J.D. He must have had another trip to the deli ruined by a clerk who couldn’t weigh exactly one and one-sevenths of a pound of lunchmeat, or a vexed exchange with a grownup who never played in a pre-OSHA playground and thus thinks cargo will fly out the back of a pickup when it brakes.

        • Michael E. Lopez says:

          Or I suppose I could have just called Autif a jerk for his comments on the military.

          Ok. Lesson learned.

      • Roger Sweeny says:

        Michael,

        I think a principal can have some effect on how many graduates from his or her school go on to college. Students can be counseled to apply, and helped and encouraged through the process. Money can be set aside for application and testing fees. At graduation, the principal can proudly announce the college to which each student is going.

        The guidance department can be instructed to tell seniors, “If you’re not sure what you want to do after you graduate, go to college ” (rather than “If you don’t know what you want to do in college, get a job or join the military.”)

        Alas, many of the people who have to be encouraged to go to college won’t get much out of it and won’t finish–but may well have taken on debt that they will have to repay. Sending lots of people to college is not costless, either to the students or to society as a whole.

        • Michael E. Lopez says:

          Roger-

          I had been thinking about something like that — which is why I threw in that line about undermining the very goals they’re pursuing and labelled that particular analysis “questionable” rather than “false.” Good points, though, all of those.

          Mostly though, I was just giving Autif grief for his offensive statements about the military. That self-assured, smug, know-it-all style is my way of saying “@#$*% you!” in these days when I monitor my online presence more than I used to.

    • Do you have any clue the kind of extensive training that someone can receive in the military? Many of the MOS’s (military career areas) have training that is the equivalent of at least an Associate’s degree.

    • Andy Howey says:

      One does not “enroll” in the military; one enlists. And, as a military retiree, I can tell you, that military members make as much, and probably more, of a commitment to their future than somebody who spends four years vacillating in college, not really knowing what s/he wants to do. At least they spend at least a couple of years figuring out what they want to do, while learning valuable skills in the process — skills that aren’t, and probably can’t be taught in college.

  5. If you’re goal is to have educated citizens, then having students go to college seems like the most relevant option.

    Further, if your goal is to have an educated work force, then you would want your students to go to college.

    For those reasons, it makes sense to give principals credit for having grads go to college.

    Because, as we all know, the ONLY kind of learning that is valuable to someone in the workforce is that which takes place in the confines of a collegiate curriculum. Oh, wait. That’s not the case. Students are being graduated from college with abysmal job skills and having to be retrained by employers.

    Maybe, just maybe, our debates on education would be a little more fruitful if we dropped the fiction that book learning is the only real type of learning.

    Hypothetically, we wouldn’t have much of a work force if everyone enrolled in the military. On that same line of thought, the more people we have enrolling in the military, the less amount of educated people we have joining the work force.

    So much is wrong with this I don’t even know where to start… Keeping it short:

    1) Look at South Korea and Switzerland. Ask yourself if they have “much of a work force”. Why those two countries? They both demand over a year of military service from all males.

    2) The military educates. Soldiers who can’t learn and adapt to the high-tech battlefield are worthless to the military. The days of the idiot soldier have been over for several decades.

  6. I went into the military straight after high school. Anyone who thinks today’s military service isn’t a path towards an education is ignorant and lacks a rounded education themselves.

    Many enlisted fields require years of study and training with little room for failure or poor performance. No passing someone along just because they did the extra credit. And college classes are encouraged and offered to all service members, even those who are deployed. Many members come out of a tour with at least an associates degree.

    Plus the travel, the cooperation with foreign military members, the diversity of our forces, and the high standards with strict repercussions make the military a unique and advantageous experience for any person lucky enough to serve.

    College was easy compared to my service time.

    • These days, it is difficult if not impossible to get promoted above a certain rank without having a certain number of college credits. When my DH was a jr. Army officer, a number of his sergeants actually had more formal education than he did because they were working on their Master’s degrees while my DH just had his bachelor’s.

      • BadaBing says:

        What’s a DH? A designated hitter?

        • Michael E. Lopez says:

          I’m pretty sure it’s “Dear Husband.”

          I won’t actually reach for the low hanging fruit of the joke that’s waiting around here, but I will note its existence.

  7. Pushing kids to go to college who don’t belong there benefits no one.

  8. Richard Aubrey says:

    If colllege were for everybody, nobody would flunk out. Since not all HS grads go to college, but those supposedlyfrom the more-qualified cohort, and still a lot flunk out….