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	<title>Comments on: The $320,000 kindergarten teacher</title>
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	<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2010/07/the-320000-kindergarten-teacher/</link>
	<description>Thinking and Linking by Joanne Jacobs</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 04:51:22 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Brett</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2010/07/the-320000-kindergarten-teacher/#comment-60723</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Aug 2010 15:18:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=16640#comment-60723</guid>
		<description>I learned a long time ago in Elementary Ed classes at USF to be skeptical of any educational &quot;research&quot;.  Too many variables is one problem. It is too easy to skew the results to an intended outcome.

Having said that, I do agree with the premise that great teachers have a tremendous effect on &#039;some&#039; students. Typically great parents have the greatest effect and while in the past almost all children went to public schools, today I see many of the best parents homeschooling their children.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I learned a long time ago in Elementary Ed classes at USF to be skeptical of any educational &#8220;research&#8221;.  Too many variables is one problem. It is too easy to skew the results to an intended outcome.</p>
<p>Having said that, I do agree with the premise that great teachers have a tremendous effect on &#8216;some&#8217; students. Typically great parents have the greatest effect and while in the past almost all children went to public schools, today I see many of the best parents homeschooling their children.</p>
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		<title>By: Cranberry</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2010/07/the-320000-kindergarten-teacher/#comment-60722</link>
		<dc:creator>Cranberry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Aug 2010 13:51:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=16640#comment-60722</guid>
		<description>Ceolaf, if we&#039;re looking at the same slides, there are graphs showing an increase in later wages correlated with teacher experience.  This would be an argument to attempt to retain as many experienced teachers as possible (experienced meaning more than 9 years of experience.)  However, in the real world, a school&#039;s workforce is not that stable.  Teachers get old, and retire, just like everyone else.  In order to have a supply of experienced teachers, there must also be a number of rookies learning the ropes.  Some students must sit in those classes.

Perhaps the suburban districts tend to have a more experienced teacher workforce.  I know my district tends to hire experienced teachers, because they have more applicants than openings.  The experienced, reliable teachers are not evenly distributed.  That doesn&#039;t mean that one can produce an education system in which all teachers have more than 10 years of experience.

One way around it would be to encourage team-teaching, in which a younger teacher and a veteran teacher would teach the equivalent of 2 classes.

There is also the question I&#039;m surprised no one has posed.  If a stellar teacher were to increase later earnings, does a very bad teacher decrease earnings?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ceolaf, if we&#8217;re looking at the same slides, there are graphs showing an increase in later wages correlated with teacher experience.  This would be an argument to attempt to retain as many experienced teachers as possible (experienced meaning more than 9 years of experience.)  However, in the real world, a school&#8217;s workforce is not that stable.  Teachers get old, and retire, just like everyone else.  In order to have a supply of experienced teachers, there must also be a number of rookies learning the ropes.  Some students must sit in those classes.</p>
<p>Perhaps the suburban districts tend to have a more experienced teacher workforce.  I know my district tends to hire experienced teachers, because they have more applicants than openings.  The experienced, reliable teachers are not evenly distributed.  That doesn&#8217;t mean that one can produce an education system in which all teachers have more than 10 years of experience.</p>
<p>One way around it would be to encourage team-teaching, in which a younger teacher and a veteran teacher would teach the equivalent of 2 classes.</p>
<p>There is also the question I&#8217;m surprised no one has posed.  If a stellar teacher were to increase later earnings, does a very bad teacher decrease earnings?</p>
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		<title>By: ceolaf</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2010/07/the-320000-kindergarten-teacher/#comment-60721</link>
		<dc:creator>ceolaf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Aug 2010 12:55:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=16640#comment-60721</guid>
		<description>Joanne,

I think you&#039;ve made a few critical mistakes on this one.

1) You trusted the reporter to get the findings of a complicated academic paper right. I don&#039;t have access to the original paper, and I have not spoken to the researchers myself, but the pieces makes claims tht are unsupported by the powerpoint summary that the article links to.

2) You didn&#039;t notice that they are projecting lifetime earnings for people who were in kindergarten in the 1980&#039;s. If the increase in scores that the Star study found did not persist over time, why should be presume that that increase in early lifetime earning persists over time? I would think that particularly with THIS data set that researchers ought to be very careful with projecting future outcomes based only on early outcomes.

3) There is no explaination of how teacher quality was measured. Rather, the slides admit that it is impossible to separate peer effects from teacher quality in kindergarten, given their data. Heck, they can&#039;t even show kindergarten growth, so we don&#039;t know how much gain to split up among different potential contributors, anyway.

Any time someone talks or writes about teacher quality, we should ask them how they are measuring it, and how they re disentangling it from all the other factors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joanne,</p>
<p>I think you&#8217;ve made a few critical mistakes on this one.</p>
<p>1) You trusted the reporter to get the findings of a complicated academic paper right. I don&#8217;t have access to the original paper, and I have not spoken to the researchers myself, but the pieces makes claims tht are unsupported by the powerpoint summary that the article links to.</p>
<p>2) You didn&#8217;t notice that they are projecting lifetime earnings for people who were in kindergarten in the 1980&#8242;s. If the increase in scores that the Star study found did not persist over time, why should be presume that that increase in early lifetime earning persists over time? I would think that particularly with THIS data set that researchers ought to be very careful with projecting future outcomes based only on early outcomes.</p>
<p>3) There is no explaination of how teacher quality was measured. Rather, the slides admit that it is impossible to separate peer effects from teacher quality in kindergarten, given their data. Heck, they can&#8217;t even show kindergarten growth, so we don&#8217;t know how much gain to split up among different potential contributors, anyway.</p>
<p>Any time someone talks or writes about teacher quality, we should ask them how they are measuring it, and how they re disentangling it from all the other factors.</p>
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		<title>By: IQ fades, but grit remains &#171; Joanne Jacobs</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2010/07/the-320000-kindergarten-teacher/#comment-60720</link>
		<dc:creator>IQ fades, but grit remains &#171; Joanne Jacobs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Aug 2010 10:48:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=16640#comment-60720</guid>
		<description>[...] this reminds me of the $320,000 kindergarten teacher, another argument that vvery good early education can teach behavioral and emotional skills that [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] this reminds me of the $320,000 kindergarten teacher, another argument that vvery good early education can teach behavioral and emotional skills that [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Malcolm Kirkpatrick</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2010/07/the-320000-kindergarten-teacher/#comment-60719</link>
		<dc:creator>Malcolm Kirkpatrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 18:17:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=16640#comment-60719</guid>
		<description>(Downes): &quot;These would be the same economists that told us the economy is fine and there is no housing bubble.&quot;

Really? Names? Or is this reflexive opposition to standard economic analysis?

(Joanne): &quot;The Harvard researchers &#039;estimate that a standout kindergarten teacher is worth about $320,000 a year,&#039; based on &#039;the additional money that a full class of students can expect to earn over their careers&#039;, Leonhardt writes.&quot;

Since homeschooled kids stomp conventionally schooled kids on usual measures of academic performance, I wonder what a homeschooling mom is worth. $320,000 = 20 x $16,000. Looks like we should pay homeschooling moms $16,000 per child per year, and that&#039;s not taking into account the reduced exposure to legal liability that homeschoolers provide to taxpayers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Downes): &#8220;These would be the same economists that told us the economy is fine and there is no housing bubble.&#8221;</p>
<p>Really? Names? Or is this reflexive opposition to standard economic analysis?</p>
<p>(Joanne): &#8220;The Harvard researchers &#8216;estimate that a standout kindergarten teacher is worth about $320,000 a year,&#8217; based on &#8216;the additional money that a full class of students can expect to earn over their careers&#8217;, Leonhardt writes.&#8221;</p>
<p>Since homeschooled kids stomp conventionally schooled kids on usual measures of academic performance, I wonder what a homeschooling mom is worth. $320,000 = 20 x $16,000. Looks like we should pay homeschooling moms $16,000 per child per year, and that&#8217;s not taking into account the reduced exposure to legal liability that homeschoolers provide to taxpayers.</p>
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		<title>By: david foster</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2010/07/the-320000-kindergarten-teacher/#comment-60718</link>
		<dc:creator>david foster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 15:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=16640#comment-60718</guid>
		<description>Looks like a very interesting study, which deserves an in-depth reading. I am impressed by the fact that the researchers understand the concept of Net Present Value (ie, that a dollar in the future is worth less than a dollar now, and that this effect can be accounted for mathematically.) Studies of this type often fail to adjust for this point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks like a very interesting study, which deserves an in-depth reading. I am impressed by the fact that the researchers understand the concept of Net Present Value (ie, that a dollar in the future is worth less than a dollar now, and that this effect can be accounted for mathematically.) Studies of this type often fail to adjust for this point.</p>
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		<title>By: palisadesk</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2010/07/the-320000-kindergarten-teacher/#comment-60717</link>
		<dc:creator>palisadesk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 13:17:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=16640#comment-60717</guid>
		<description>There is solid data to support the existence of very powerful teacher effects, &lt;i&gt;especially&lt;/i&gt; at the earliest levels.

See the account I summarized on Kitchen Table Math of a landmark study published in &lt;i&gt;Harvard Educational Review&lt;/i&gt;:

http://kitchentablemath.blogspot.com/2008/02/miss-and-moneyball.html

Better yet, get a copy of the paper (unfortunately, it is not online anywhere, but the data are &lt;b&gt;very comprehensive). I got my district&#039;s professional library staff to get me a copy through interlibrary loan.&lt;/b&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is solid data to support the existence of very powerful teacher effects, <i>especially</i> at the earliest levels.</p>
<p>See the account I summarized on Kitchen Table Math of a landmark study published in <i>Harvard Educational Review</i>:</p>
<p><a href="http://kitchentablemath.blogspot.com/2008/02/miss-and-moneyball.html" rel="nofollow">http://kitchentablemath.blogspot.com/2008/02/miss-and-moneyball.html</a></p>
<p>Better yet, get a copy of the paper (unfortunately, it is not online anywhere, but the data are <b>very comprehensive). I got my district&#8217;s professional library staff to get me a copy through interlibrary loan.</b></p>
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		<title>By: tim-10-ber</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2010/07/the-320000-kindergarten-teacher/#comment-60716</link>
		<dc:creator>tim-10-ber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 01:38:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=16640#comment-60716</guid>
		<description>think i just answered by own question...next step is college ready standards for pre-school...what are we suppose to do...hand the kids over to the schools at birth...

http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2010/07/26/37yalow.h29.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>think i just answered by own question&#8230;next step is college ready standards for pre-school&#8230;what are we suppose to do&#8230;hand the kids over to the schools at birth&#8230;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2010/07/26/37yalow.h29.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2010/07/26/37yalow.h29.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Cal</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2010/07/the-320000-kindergarten-teacher/#comment-60715</link>
		<dc:creator>Cal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 01:24:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=16640#comment-60715</guid>
		<description>This is such nonsense. Teachers are irrelevant unless you had a rilly rilly awesome lady who taught you how to stand in line and share milk and cookies? Come on. It&#039;s absurd.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is such nonsense. Teachers are irrelevant unless you had a rilly rilly awesome lady who taught you how to stand in line and share milk and cookies? Come on. It&#8217;s absurd.</p>
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		<title>By: tim-10-ber</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2010/07/the-320000-kindergarten-teacher/#comment-60714</link>
		<dc:creator>tim-10-ber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 01:17:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=16640#comment-60714</guid>
		<description>I live in Tennessee and everything I have ever heard was how Project Star was a failure...how did they track these people...

Yes we know kids must have strong elementary teachers (academically strong elementary teachers) to be successful in middle and high school...if this is true about the kindergarten teachers what does it mean about the caliber of teachers in pre-school and head start programs...shouldn&#039;t they be degreed too?  Interesting...time to raise the caliber of elementary teachers the most critical link in the chain and today one of the weakest...

It will be interesting to see what comes of this information</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I live in Tennessee and everything I have ever heard was how Project Star was a failure&#8230;how did they track these people&#8230;</p>
<p>Yes we know kids must have strong elementary teachers (academically strong elementary teachers) to be successful in middle and high school&#8230;if this is true about the kindergarten teachers what does it mean about the caliber of teachers in pre-school and head start programs&#8230;shouldn&#8217;t they be degreed too?  Interesting&#8230;time to raise the caliber of elementary teachers the most critical link in the chain and today one of the weakest&#8230;</p>
<p>It will be interesting to see what comes of this information</p>
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