How not to lay off teachers

Seniority is a stupid way to lay off teachers, writes Marcus A. Winters in City Journal.

We know that after only a couple of years in the classroom, a teacher’s additional experience has no bearing on the amount her students learn.

For most school districts in the state, basing layoff decisions on seniority is no better or worse than picking names out of a hat. Some good and some bad teachers will be blindly let go in what will be essentially random layoffs.

Targeting the least effective teachers would actually improve learning, despite slightly larger classes, he writes.

New York City has “dramatically improved the quality of the new teachers it hires” by turning to alternative-certification programs such as Teach for America and the New York Teaching Fellows, Winters writes.

Researchers at the Urban Institute recently found that the arrival of this teaching cohort was responsible for narrowing the gap in teacher quality between high- and low-poverty schools in the city.

But the city is hiring fewer new teachers and soon will be laying off the most recently hired, including the high-quality teachers willing to teach in high-poverty schools.

Writing in Teacher Magazine, Heather Wolpert-Gawron, 137 on her school district’s layoff list, agrees that last hired first fired makes no sense, even as she worries that districts will be tempted to lay off higher-paid, experienced teachers, regardless of competence, if seniority protections are eliminated entirely. Weighing the trade-offs, she concludes that teachers must be willing to see job performance factored into layoff decisions.

Smart, capable people won’t enter a “quality-blind” profession that rewards teachers “based on their hire date, not on their achievements, ability or effort,” Wolpert-Gawron writes.

Update: I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard or read over the last 25 years that teacher effectiveness (measured by reading and math scores) usually levels off after two or three years in the classroom.  For those wanting research citations, I found this NBER study and a blog post citing several more studies. If anyone has research to the contrary, let me know.

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  1. Diana Senechal says:

    Winters’ statement is not true: “We know that after only a couple of years in the classroom, a teacher’s additional experience has no bearing on the amount her students learn.”

    First of all, “no bearing” is a severe exaggeration. I have read studies that suggest that the effect of a teacher’s additional experience starts to level off after the first few years. But nothing I have read suggests that it goes away.

    Second, this is a general observation; it does not necessarily apply to all teachers.

    Third, it only pertains to the teachers’ effect on students’ test scores (on low-level state tests). A teacher’s additional experience can affect the students’ learning in many other ways, and it may be better reflected on rigorous tests in the actual subjects.

    As teachers gain substantial experience, they gain perspective, wisdom, and insight into the subject. I will not scoff at those things, or dismiss their effect on students, no matter how far out of fashion they fall.

  2. I would love to see teacher quality used as a factor – the moment someone demonstrates a reliable way of measuring it.

    This method must be able to account for classes of students who are 5 years behind because they’ve never been allowed to fail. It must be able to distinguish cases where administration supports discipline and those who take the two kids from a knock-down brawl and send them right back to class. Even the value-added model breaks down for students who spend half the year either absent or suspended.

    New York State, for example, bases its evaluations of schools on the state test scores of their students. Students are weighed against the school equally regardless of whether they had been at that school for years, arrived the day before the exam, or didn’t even enter the school until after the exam.

    The problem goes beyond school. As long as we have a system which tells people that if they never lift a finger to take responsibility for themselves there will always be somebody to take care of them, killing work ethic and building a sense of entitlement, nothing we do in school will make lick of difference.

  3. Does anything that comes out of the Manhatten Institute EVER get checked for facts?

    Based on
    analysis of the most recent data from the National Center for Education Statistics for the
    1999-2000 school year, it is estimated that almost a third of America’s teachers leave the
    field sometime during their first three years of teaching, and almost half leave after five

    Why not use seniority when there’s a 50/50 chance you’ll lose that newer teacher anyway.

    Winters also gives no proof for his assertion “We know that after only a couple of years in the classroom, a teacher’s additional experience has no bearing on the amount her students learn.”

    His arguement is nothing more than a setup for private companies to make a little more profit when they swoop in to take control of a school. Less experienced teachers means less salary costs, less job security and less pesky questions from experienced veterans.

    In short, he’s arguing for age discrimination. Not suprising from a “fellow” from the Manhatten Institute.

  4. Roger Sweeny says:


    There is a (logically) simple solution to the problem of laying off experienced teachers because they make more money. Stop paying on the basis of seniority. Nobody becomes automatically better because they are at a school longer. Certainly, few 25 year veterans are one and a half times better than people who have been there five years.

    Right now seniority gives you more money AND more job security. That is unfair.

    Unfortunately, anything else may be more unfair, or have undesirable side effects. We know so little about how to evaluate teachers that merit pay is a crap shoot (oh, and while we’re at it, let’s get rid of our present merit pay system that says “pay more to the people who’ve taken more ed courses”). Fluctuating pay may be bad for morale and make it difficult to keep teachers. Stability in a school is important.

    People are right to complain about how much seniority matters. I just wish there were a better system.

  5. In other words Diana, you don’t have a lick of evidence, even the sort of laughable evidence that’s common currency in ed schools, to back up your contention that there’s an ongoing increase in teaching skill that corresponds to tenure beyond some limited number of years of experience. You just don’t like that someone else’s observed what you’ve observed but drawn the obvious rather then the self-serving conclusion.

    Sorry, but you’re just going to have to toughen up. There seems to be a gradually solidifying opinion that demanding what’s inconvenient for those drawing a paycheck from the public education system, like demonstrating competence, is no longer evidence of poor upbringing and bad manners.

    Obi-Wandreas, let me lay things out for you.

    The politics surrounding public education are changing. The boomers who were willing, like wealthy parents, to write checks to the public education system as a proxy for personal responsibility, are coming up against the results of that selfish decision. The Gen-Xers they brought forth don’t seem to be nearly as enthralled with the idea of assuming that money buys quality. More and more the alternative – that if you want something done right you do it yourself – seems to be gaining credence. Hence the ongoing attraction of charter schools and, indeed, the entire panoply of substantive education reforms.

    What that means is that your dismissal of the notion of measuring teaching skill until some method meets with your lofty, and no doubt objective, standards is a position that is losing its grip on political power. People want to know that teachers don’t just have a teaching certificate of doubtful value but that there’s some measurable skill to go along with that certificate. Sorry if the current methods, whatever they are, don’t come up to your standards but even less then perfect measures are better then no measures at all.

    By the way Mike, I think your attempt to defend seniority is marvelous for its novelty and boldness. If the gas gauge isn’t working then the safe assumption is that the gas tank is half full.

    Sadly, the NEA is unlikely to take up that particular defense. Oh well, a guy can dream.

  6. Roger,

    Are YOU willing to work without some sort of yearly raise? Perhaps you’ve heard of a little thing called inflation? If you’re salary stays the same your buying power becomes less and less every year.

    I work at a school that participated in a merit pay/bonus plan. What would I have done differently? Absolutley nothing! I did the best I could b/c I take pride in my work, something the vast majority of teachers do.


    As I stated, Winters offers zero proof of his assertions. Therefore, his piece is nothing but pure opinion, and an opinion with an agenda beyond it. The Manhatten Institute is nothing but a propaganda outfit whose purpose is to push the corporate agenda.

  7. I’m kind of a middle of the road’er. True, SOME teachers with years of experience suck hugely. True, SOME newbies are dreadful.
    I’m against using just test data, but that’s a good starting point. Measure the score at entrance to that teacher’s classroom, then again at the end. You can quantify the difference, and attribute it to the teacher.
    You also have to be realistic – if the student has had major life events (homelessness, violence, pregnancy, jail – for self or a family member), then maybe we shouldn’t expect a huge jump – just holding steady with dropping back might be a good outcome.
    We also have to stop pushing kids to the next level – if they haven’t mastered a significant number of the elementary objectives, don’t send them on to middle school. They need to be able to read and write, as well as handle basic math.
    Give the parents the choice – when they enter high school with VERY low skills, they can either:
    * get a certificate – NOT a diploma
    * commit to Saturday tutoring and summer school, until they have caught up.
    No exceptions.
    In other words, everyone has the right to strive to succeed, but not the right to keep others from learning. If you can’t participate fully in class, due to your lack of skills, you need to commit to what it takes to catch up.

  8. So your unsupported assertion is that the piece is valueless because, according to you, it’s based on unsupported assertions. To buttress your unsupported assertions you engage in a bit of name-calling. Very compelling if you’re a habitué of Democratic Underground. Not so much if you’re not.

    By the way, I’m still waiting for some explanation of why a 50% attrition rate obviates the need for the measurement of professional skills.

    Somehow, the fact that 50% of teachers are gone after five years doesn’t seem like a very good reason to assume the remaining 50% are so good their skills needn’t be measured.

  9. tim-10-ber says:

    Mike — In the business world, yes we DO work without annual raises…there is no guarantee and there should NOT be one for ANY government worker. Why do you think you are entitled? No, inflation is not a valid answer…

    Allen — a guestion..I don’t know if it is on this board or not but it has been mentioned that teachers should go through internships/residencies like doctors-to-be. Is this a possible way to see how well newly graduated teachers-to-be operate in the classroom?

    No profession that I am aware of throws new hires into a situation like education without plenty of training…

    Just a thought…

  10. The comparison of teachers to doctors is not a valid one, both because of the wildly different academic qualification and because med school and residency are postgraduate. There are already far too many teachers out there with essentially meaningless grad degrees in education, which add little to either content knowledge or teaching skill. More of the same isn’t the answer.

    New graduates in nursing are prepared to practice after a brief orientation. There is supervised clinical practice, across all major clinical areas, during college. If ed schools can’t manage to do the same, they ought to be either completely re-designed or eliminated. And nurses are regularly evaluated by their supervisors and patient outcomes are an integral part of that. Why should teachers be immune?

    BTW, nurses and other health professionals don’t get tenure and don’t have contracts giving them regular raises. In fact, in my area, they recently were given a 5% pay CUT at both of the local hospitals. Also, many physicians are making LESS every year, due to the low Medicare/Medicaid reimbursement rates, which means losing money on those patients.

    Further, health professionals are always vulnerable to lawsuits.

  11. Allen,

    Were you a teacher you would understand exactly what a 50% attrition rate means. I’ll try to explain it to you. In the 1st 5 years of teaching 50% of the people who can’t hack it for whatever reason leave the profession or are removed from it.

    See if you can guess what that says about the 50% who remain.

  12. tim-10-ber, the high irony is that, despite all the complaining about how little respect teachers get these days from parents ant the public it’s within the profession, and the institution of public education, that teaching skill is least valued if it’s given any recognition at all.

    This discussion of seniority showcases the lack of importance placed on teaching skill within the profession but it isn’t hard to find all sorts of other examples.

    Ed schools can inflict the latest edu-fad on their students because teaching skill doesn’t matter. If the edu-fad wastes the student teacher’s time and money, so what? It’s not like the inflicting of those edu-fads on the kids is going to, ultimately, result in a backlash that reaches back to the ed school. No harm, no foul.

    If you put your mind to it you can easily come up with other examples of how little value is placed on teaching skill in the public education system. Teacher of the Year awards and the like.

    Trouble is, this isn’t a problem that can be fixed. It’s intrinsic to the public education system although the devaluation of teaching skill’s exacerbated by the district system of organization common in the U.S. If the organizational structure of public education doesn’t change then neither will the value placed on teaching skill.

  13. Michael E. Lopez, Esq. says:

    I know I sound repetitive when I say this, but I’ll say it again just because I happen to think it’s really true.

    Principals and students *know* who the best teachers are. Other teachers know who the best teachers are, too, though they are less likely to be candid about it. Parents sometimes know as well.

    It’s no great secret who the worst teachers are, either. Everyone knows. ESPECIALLY the students.

    This isn’t a deep mystery, and we don’t need a uniform metric. The inefficiencies and unfairness that would crop up by giving principals discretionary power over hiring and firing would, I think, be utterly dwarfed by the fact that someone with good information would be making the decisions. If a principal is really egregious in his or her abuse of authority, well, we could fire them, too. Parents know who the crappy principals are, and they vote for the schoolboard.

  14. I’ll add another point. For el ed majors, they SHOULD (but probably don’t – thanks to their own k-12 education) know most of the subject-area content pertinent to k-8 before they even arrive in college, so it’s not primarily an issue of learning unfamiliar material (unlike almost any other major). They should be taught HOW TO TEACH (specifics like phonics, composition, math etc.) these subjects, along with classroom management, tests and measurements, generalist knowledge re. spec ed and supervised practice teaching. That’s completely realistic within four years. When I was in grades 1-4 (no k), I had normal school grads who had had ONE YEAR of teacher prep after HIGH SCHOOL and all four were excellent teachers.

  15. tim-10-ber says:

    momof4 – your second paragraph said what I was thinking much better than I did…thanks!! I agree completely..

    Allen — i pulled my kids from government schools because I do believe the system is broken…the challenge, at least to me, is what will become of the country we are leaving our kids? What kind of life will my kids have…

    I firmly believe schools of education should be done away with…they do much more harm than good…the same can be said of so many in government employment…

    As an aside…the supposedly top 30 high school in the country has an algebra ii teacher that “obtained” her national teaching qualifications and was name teacher of the year at her school. When the BOE was “honoring” her I pointed out to the BOE chairman what a joke the whole certification is as she literally cannot even teach her subject…how in the world did she get the certification? how in the world do parents know how good teachers are and the quality of education their kids are receiving?

    mine will be out of K-12 education next month. if I had kids today ready to enter the school system…I wouldn’t do it…they would be home schooled…

    Really, really sad…

  16. Don Bemont says:

    Allen said:
    “To buttress your unsupported assertions you engage in a bit of name-calling.”

    Allen, this sounds ridiculous coming from a guy who, says:
    * “Very compelling if you’re a habitué of Democratic Underground. Not so much if you’re not.”
    * “You’re just going to have to toughen up.”
    * “There seems to be a gradually solidifying opinion that…”
    * “The boomers who were willing, like wealthy parents, to write checks to the public education system as a proxy for personal responsibility, are coming up against the results of that selfish decision. The Gen-Xers they brought forth don’t seem to be nearly as enthralled with the idea of assuming that money buys quality.”
    * “Your lofty, and no doubt objective, standards is a position that is losing its grip on political power.”

    Are you actually trying to give a clinic on how to use the widest variety of propaganda techniques in a single thread?

    But back to the discussion at hand: I believe that you are entirely correct in your view that teaching skills are devalued, especially in contrast to the fads. However, that is exactly the reason that so many of us are cautious about replacing retention based on seniority with retention based on administrator decision. In the schools I know, administrators might know who the best teachers are, as Michael claims, but they would be a lot more interested in using the layoff power as a hammer to enforce the latest fads, some of which are just foolishness and others amount to fraud. Don’t misunderstand, they would not lay off the very best teachers, but they would select from the other 75% based on kowtowing to extremely questionable trends.

    I wish I could say that layoffs based on standardized test scores would avoid this problem, but administrators simply funnel the students who rarely attend or rarely show up sober into the classes of teachers who have not properly complied with the latest fad. Honestly, the last thing you want is to do is give educational administrators more power; I would argue that the decline of public education has many causes, but number one may very well be the simultanous rise in power and decline in quality of school administration.

  17. Mark Roulo says:

    “Are YOU willing to work without some sort of yearly raise?”

    Actually, yes. Because I have. As Tim-10-ber mentioned, this is far from uncommon in many other parts of the economy. I’m usually not happy about it, but when the revenues my company receives drop by 50% in a 12-18 month period of time, *SOMETHING* has to give. One of those things is sometimes raises.

    I’m quite certain that this experience is far from unique.

    And, yes, the employees *do* realize that after inflation they are falling behind. It just seems better than many of the alternatives.

    -Mark Roulo

  18. In my view, the ed world is pretty much incompetent and ed world credentials (bachelors, masters, EdD)are pretty much worthless. One of the very worst -as in mentally unstable, possibly psychotic – teachers (with ed masters) my kids ever had was the recipient of a whole wall-full of awards. Within the student-parent community, that was well-known. Of course, the ed world didn’t care; it was all about meaningless credentialism (aka horse apples).

  19. Sorry, I wasn’t clear. That teacher’s emotional/psychotic issues were well-known in the student/parent community. I can’t imagine that the department head and principal didn’t know, but they didn’t confront the issue. Based on the “I love me” wall and meaningless credentials/workshops etc, she was a star. Pity her students…

  20. Run a clinic? No Don, that would require students. I’m just enjoying a bracing round of rhetorical calisthenics. A monologue with accompaniment.

    Your point about administrators is an example of the sort unthinking recitation of approved formulas that typifies Mike’s efforts and merits little exertion in response.

    If you’d actually engaged your faculties a trifle and examined the point you were making you’d realize that the only reason an administrator would misuse such influence as they’d have in a merit pay scheme is because the administrator isn’t on the hook to demonstrate their own effectiveness.

    See how that works? If the administrator doesn’t enjoy the luxury of a grand indifference to educational outcomes then they are of necessity interested in satisfactory educational outcomes and by implication all that contributes to those outcomes. Good teachers go from being either unimportant or annoying to crucial team members.

    If the principal’s performance bonus results from meeting educational goals then teachers go from being bothersome necessities to the means by which the principal trades up to a BMW. That puts a whole different light on teacher complaints and suggestions, doesn’t it?

    See where I’m going with this? Either the entire organization prospers or doesn’t based on performance or the entire organization is indifferent to performance. The latter’s the current state of affairs which means that *teacher-only* merit pay schemes are stupid in concept and ultimately doomed to failure.

  21. Mom-of-2 says:

    “In my view, the ed world is pretty much incompetent and ed world credentials (bachelors, masters, EdD) are pretty much worthless.”

    Wow… that’s one strong statement. Is your view based entirely on the encounter you mention with the “mentally unstable, possibly psychotic” teacher? Surely there are other examples that lead you to your conclusion? How many incompetent educators have you personally experienced? I can’t help but be curious! I love gross generalizations, and always wonder how people come to them. Do you think the incompetence is caused by advanced degrees, or vice versa?

  22. you know how democrats and republicans have continued to slander, incite, lie about, and generally piss each other off for the last 20 years? (well, longer, but it’s gotten so much worse of late) and you know how that hasn’t actually made either side want to work with the other side, or helped either side to seriously consider the other side’s points of arguments?

    i think all the pissy parents and other curmudgeons out there and all the ornery teachers (or even just regular, hard working ones) are basically doing the same thing on threads like this and it’s not going to make a bit of difference for anyone.

    through out various discussions on this board i’ve read a lot of nasty comments — whether the sentiments hold true or not, they are said with such disdain. the lack of respect that some of you were discussing — that’s a huge demotivator. some of the commenters on here have long complained that ed degrees are worthless. have you sat through education courses in order to verify their worthlessness? and if you sat through courses at one college, it wouldn’t be enough to make a sweeping generalization about all ed courses. some of the things that momof4 complains about teachers not learning — i had specific classes regarding each of those topics. there really are ed colleges out there that teach a person how to teach.

    i think the biggest problem i face in my classroom is this: children that come into my room and have no respect for me from day one BECAUSE THEIR PARENTS TELL THEM THEY DON’T HAVE TO RESPECT ME. b/c i don’t know anything anyway. now. . .how am i going to have success with a child who’s parents are constantly undermining me? if the narrative of the public is that teachers are dumb, students pick up on it and in turn don’t listen to us. which means they don’t learn. which the public interprets to mean that teachers suck. and it’s a nasty cycle.

    but, i digress. i’ve turned to complaining, which will only cause people to complain about me, or teachers in general and we will have gotten nowhere. which was my whole point: this is all a waste.

    and last of all, momof4, does having issues in someone’s personal life automatically make them a bad teacher? cause that disqualifies every person on the planet at some point or another.

    my principal has a saying, and i’m glad he believes this: “we’re teachers, but we’re people first.”

  23. Mom-of-2 says:

    Julia: I really appreciate your comments and think they ring with truth. But here’s a little advice from an old teacher, whose value is under question here: when you write publicly, without attention to punctuation or proper capitalization, you are giving folks like momof4 extra ammunition and justification for their negative points of view.

    I think your little writing deviations are emblematic of our texting culture, and I’m willing to bet that when you turn in a paper to a college professor, or to your principal, you know what to do.

    Nevertheless, teachers must demonstrate competence in that which they are expected to teach, especially when entering into debates with teacher-bashers.

    Take care, and don’t give up, despite the cheap shots the cynics may hurl.

  24. Teacher No More says:

    “Principals and students *know* who the best teachers are. Other teachers know who the best teachers are, too, though they are less likely to be candid about it. Parents sometimes know as well.”

    BullSh*T. This is like saying that passengers and flight attendants know who the best pilots are. Only in the most egregious cases will they know who the worst pilots are.

    Same with teaching. How does someone knows nothing about a subject know whether it’s being taught correctly? Or whether the teaching needs a small tweak or whether it’s completely off track?

    A good teacher is someone who prepares you for the next step. If you’re a high school math teacher, then preparing students either for college math or the work force is what makes a good teacher. Unfortunately, principals and other such people, rarely have any life experience beyond k12 themselves, and, more often than not, are not even math people. Therefore, administrators and students judge teachers solely by their entertainment value (AKA “engagement”)

    If principals knew what a good teacher was we wouldn’t have any “bad” teachers, would we?

    How did all the “bad” teachers infiltrate our schools? Did they crawl through the plumbing?

    If we have bad teachers then it’s precisely the “trainers” (edschools) and “selectors” (administrators) who are doing a crappy job to begin with.

  25. Mom of 2 and Julia: I don’t blame any teacher for getting an ed degree, at any level, because that is the current expectation and is rewarded. I think the likelihood of said degree(s) actually being valuable, in terms of increasing the content knowledge and/or teaching skill of the recipient is low and I have multiple teachers in my family. Only one, with a pre-service master’s which included year-long assignment to an experienced teacher in the same field, at the same level, really felt the classes had much worth. Therefore, my conclusion is that said degrees need serious re-evaluation, such that they should be expected to increase both knowledge and skills.

    Mom of 2: When a teacher’s emotional/mental health interferes with her (his) classroom performance on a frequent basis, it is a problem which requires serious evaluation and possible removal. The teacher I mentioned was very interested in dreams and talked about hers on a daily basis (in HS Honors English). One of the students left one of the fruits she had mentioned on her desk before school; on seeing it, she ran from the classroom, screaming, and did not return all day. There were a number of incidents in this vein. Do you consider this acceptable? This is also true for cognitive changes. What about a middle-aged teacher whose senility issues meant that she did not reliably remember the names of her <25 ES students at the end of the year, let alone the material she supposedly taught? Failure to deal effectively with issues is all too typical of ed administrators.

    As far as the issue of student/parent behavior and expectations, I have often posted on this and other sites that I feel that kids not meeting appropriate standards should be disciplined or removed to alternative placement. If that means certain behavioral/work habit/academic standards for school admission or promotion, so be it.

  26. I know that teaching is my choice, so I have to deal with the pay scales, but I find it annoying that none of my previous work experience counts as experience. I have a master’s degree in engineering with 18 years work experience. I taught lab classes in grad school and taught many short courses to adults. None of this counts, I accept that. I don’t like it, but I knew that just the way it is if I want to teach. I can’t wait to be judged by my effectiveness instead of my years teaching under 19 y.o.s

  27. palisadesk says:

    “If we have bad teachers then it’s precisely the “trainers” (edschools) and “selectors” (administrators) who are doing a crappy job to begin with”

    Research data from the field supports this assertion. When the late Michael Pressley from Michigan State studied teacher effectiveness at various grade levels, he solicited recomendations from senior administrators and principals in the districts involved. They were asked to nominate for the research teachers whom they would be proud to exhibit to international visitors as exemplary.

    Some of the teachers involved, in year-long observational studies, were indeed exemplary. And some were just good or average. But a striking thing is that a subset of teachers (recommended by administrators who thought they were “exemplary”) were in fact VERY poor — teachers you would go out of your way to have your own child avoid.

    Pressley found a great deal of cognitive dissonance between teachers’ performance and their administrators’ opinions, and between teachers’ performance and their OWN opinions. He discovered that the most effective teachers were the most self-critical and constantly anxious to improve their practice and learn more, while the least effective considered themselves already outstanding and not in need of any further growth or learning.

    He points out that these observations raise some serious issues about performance evaluation on the one hand, and initiatives that leave improvement up to individual choice on the other. Those most in need of improvement are the least likely to seek it. But principals and superintendents are not reliable judges of who is an effective teacher and who is not.

  28. Roger Sweeny says:


    Are YOU willing to work without some sort of yearly raise?”

    I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately. Lots of people around here have lost their jobs and I keep asking myself, “Is it fair for me to get more and more while all these people have no jobs at all?” After all, they pay my salary. And I keep coming up with, “No, it’s not.” Would I like it? Of course not. But there are a lot of things I don’t like.

    My wife had to go from full-time to three days a week (at 3/5 pay) when her place of employment lost one of its major funding sources. It seemed fair. Did I like it? No, but there are a lot of things I don’t like.


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