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	<title>Comments on: Charter does more with same dollars</title>
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	<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/11/charter-does-more-with-same-dollars/</link>
	<description>Thinking and Linking by Joanne Jacobs</description>
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		<title>By: Lightly Seasoned</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/11/charter-does-more-with-same-dollars/#comment-52223</link>
		<dc:creator>Lightly Seasoned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 19:06:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11998#comment-52223</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d rather be able to choose my administrators than my students.  I suspect successful charters have leaders who know better than to interrupt class constantly and saddle their teachers with pointless beaurocratic tasks.   I&#039;ve seen good teachers fleeing our local charters, which are the pits.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d rather be able to choose my administrators than my students.  I suspect successful charters have leaders who know better than to interrupt class constantly and saddle their teachers with pointless beaurocratic tasks.   I&#8217;ve seen good teachers fleeing our local charters, which are the pits.</p>
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		<title>By: George Mitchell</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/11/charter-does-more-with-same-dollars/#comment-52222</link>
		<dc:creator>George Mitchell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 16:22:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11998#comment-52222</guid>
		<description>I wrote the EdNext item on Rocketship Mateo Sheedy.

In response to some comments above, I offer the following:

The FY 2010 total budget for Rocketship Mateo Sheedy is $3,229,381.  With an enrollment of 452 students, that is $7,145/student.  Excluding almost $600,000 in capital costs, the operating budget is about $2.6 million, or $5,842/student.


The average salary for the eleven teachers at Rocketship Mateo Sheedy is $60,660.  With benefits, total average compensation is $74,996.  The benefit package more closely reflects the real world, rather than the dreamland that is going to bankrupt so many traditional public school districts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wrote the EdNext item on Rocketship Mateo Sheedy.</p>
<p>In response to some comments above, I offer the following:</p>
<p>The FY 2010 total budget for Rocketship Mateo Sheedy is $3,229,381.  With an enrollment of 452 students, that is $7,145/student.  Excluding almost $600,000 in capital costs, the operating budget is about $2.6 million, or $5,842/student.</p>
<p>The average salary for the eleven teachers at Rocketship Mateo Sheedy is $60,660.  With benefits, total average compensation is $74,996.  The benefit package more closely reflects the real world, rather than the dreamland that is going to bankrupt so many traditional public school districts.</p>
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		<title>By: Parent2</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/11/charter-does-more-with-same-dollars/#comment-52221</link>
		<dc:creator>Parent2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 16:13:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11998#comment-52221</guid>
		<description>The district includes &quot;Santa Clara County Special Education.&quot;  1300 students, k-12, average (for those Sped students) of 7 students per teacher.  So, the &quot;district&quot; is a grouping of charter schools -- probably under the county&#039;s authority -- and all the sped students from Santa Clara county.  Among the population of sped students, some receive services running into six figures.  So, it&#039;s a bookkeeping convenience.  It says nothing about the budgets of the charter schools who also fall under the county&#039;s authority.  The money isn&#039;t evenly distributed.

The Santa Clara County Special Education budget must be much higher than $54,000 per student.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The district includes &#8220;Santa Clara County Special Education.&#8221;  1300 students, k-12, average (for those Sped students) of 7 students per teacher.  So, the &#8220;district&#8221; is a grouping of charter schools &#8212; probably under the county&#8217;s authority &#8212; and all the sped students from Santa Clara county.  Among the population of sped students, some receive services running into six figures.  So, it&#8217;s a bookkeeping convenience.  It says nothing about the budgets of the charter schools who also fall under the county&#8217;s authority.  The money isn&#8217;t evenly distributed.</p>
<p>The Santa Clara County Special Education budget must be much higher than $54,000 per student.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Sweeny</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/11/charter-does-more-with-same-dollars/#comment-52220</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Sweeny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:48:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Mike&#039;s comment involved him getting $54,000 per pupil to spend.  It also involved him picking and choosing his students.  I assume it would also involve him setting up a situation where he isn&#039;t interrupted every ten minutes.

In those circumstances, no decent teacher can lose.

I actually thought the most important part of his hypothetical was not the money but the ability to choose his students.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike&#8217;s comment involved him getting $54,000 per pupil to spend.  It also involved him picking and choosing his students.  I assume it would also involve him setting up a situation where he isn&#8217;t interrupted every ten minutes.</p>
<p>In those circumstances, no decent teacher can lose.</p>
<p>I actually thought the most important part of his hypothetical was not the money but the ability to choose his students.</p>
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		<title>By: Tracy W</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/11/charter-does-more-with-same-dollars/#comment-52219</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:01:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11998#comment-52219</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;...but can we all agree that Mike is right when he says, “gimme 54K per student to spend, let me pick and choose my students, and I’ll give you the greatest test scores around”? &lt;/i&gt;

No we can&#039;t agree. It&#039;s entirely possible that Mike would waste 54K per student a year. As far as I can tell, effective teaching is a complex skill requiring great professional ability on the behalf of the teachers in the classroom and the various structural supports (school staff, curriculum, teaching materials, okay there are some occasional teachers who manage to work magic despite the best efforts of the school administration, but one can&#039;t guarantee hiring superheroes), it&#039;s not some mindless system with a 1:1 correlation between money and output. For example, I recall a teacher once calculating that one day she was interrupted on average once every ten minutes during class teaching time, these sorts of interruptions are going to be a drag on any teacher. If Mike sets up his school in a similar way then I don&#039;t see how 54k a year would help.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8230;but can we all agree that Mike is right when he says, “gimme 54K per student to spend, let me pick and choose my students, and I’ll give you the greatest test scores around”? </i></p>
<p>No we can&#8217;t agree. It&#8217;s entirely possible that Mike would waste 54K per student a year. As far as I can tell, effective teaching is a complex skill requiring great professional ability on the behalf of the teachers in the classroom and the various structural supports (school staff, curriculum, teaching materials, okay there are some occasional teachers who manage to work magic despite the best efforts of the school administration, but one can&#8217;t guarantee hiring superheroes), it&#8217;s not some mindless system with a 1:1 correlation between money and output. For example, I recall a teacher once calculating that one day she was interrupted on average once every ten minutes during class teaching time, these sorts of interruptions are going to be a drag on any teacher. If Mike sets up his school in a similar way then I don&#8217;t see how 54k a year would help.</p>
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		<title>By: allen</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/11/charter-does-more-with-same-dollars/#comment-52218</link>
		<dc:creator>allen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Nov 2009 01:48:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I should think you would inasmuch as you&#039;ll be getting hit from both sides but in answer to your first question: no.

No amount of money is enough because money isn&#039;t the factor biases the public education system in the direction of success or failure.

Pick the right students, those whose internal or external resources are sufficient to turn a rotten teacher, a self-involved, self-pitying teacher, into a speed bump and you&#039;ll get great scores but then you&#039;re not taking about getting an education in a school opened to all, you&#039;re talking about climbing Mount Everest.

As for the per student figure, I doubt it&#039;s accurate although some special needs kids suck up simply stupendous amounts of money.

$54,000 per student does move us closer to the twenty-teacher-per-student classroom which I&#039;m informed is what&#039;s necessary to ensure every child gets a good education. Not sure it&#039;s enough money for a whale though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should think you would inasmuch as you&#8217;ll be getting hit from both sides but in answer to your first question: no.</p>
<p>No amount of money is enough because money isn&#8217;t the factor biases the public education system in the direction of success or failure.</p>
<p>Pick the right students, those whose internal or external resources are sufficient to turn a rotten teacher, a self-involved, self-pitying teacher, into a speed bump and you&#8217;ll get great scores but then you&#8217;re not taking about getting an education in a school opened to all, you&#8217;re talking about climbing Mount Everest.</p>
<p>As for the per student figure, I doubt it&#8217;s accurate although some special needs kids suck up simply stupendous amounts of money.</p>
<p>$54,000 per student does move us closer to the twenty-teacher-per-student classroom which I&#8217;m informed is what&#8217;s necessary to ensure every child gets a good education. Not sure it&#8217;s enough money for a whale though.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Sweeny</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/11/charter-does-more-with-same-dollars/#comment-52217</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Sweeny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 15:01:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11998#comment-52217</guid>
		<description>I hate to step between two commenters when they&#039;re pissing on each other but can we all agree that Mike is right when he says, &quot;gimme 54K per student to spend, let me pick and choose my students, and I’ll give you the greatest test scores around&quot;?  And can we also agree that this charter gets nowhere near $54,000 per student?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hate to step between two commenters when they&#8217;re pissing on each other but can we all agree that Mike is right when he says, &#8220;gimme 54K per student to spend, let me pick and choose my students, and I’ll give you the greatest test scores around&#8221;?  And can we also agree that this charter gets nowhere near $54,000 per student?</p>
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		<title>By: allen</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/11/charter-does-more-with-same-dollars/#comment-52216</link>
		<dc:creator>allen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Nov 2009 01:38:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11998#comment-52216</guid>
		<description>Tell it to the various state legislatures, Michigan&#039;s included, that are revisiting the political deal that brought charters into existence with an eye towards relaxing the inevitable caps on charter numbers. They&#039;re not listening to sort of feverish denunciations of charters you favor because they *are* listening to a rising chorus of constituencies who also aren&#039;t listening to the likes of you.

That&#039;s why Obama&#039;s talking up various kinds of education reform among which is more charters. His state senate district was the south side of Chicago just the sort of place that&#039;s been failed by the education system for decades.

You can bet that when Obama set foot in some little, local church one of the things he heard about was the lousy state of the education system and what he also heard about was how good kids were doing in charters. And how happy parents were their kids was in those charter.

But you keep repeating the NEA talking points. Maybe not quite yet but one day soon you&#039;ll realize that you&#039;re the only person listening to you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tell it to the various state legislatures, Michigan&#8217;s included, that are revisiting the political deal that brought charters into existence with an eye towards relaxing the inevitable caps on charter numbers. They&#8217;re not listening to sort of feverish denunciations of charters you favor because they *are* listening to a rising chorus of constituencies who also aren&#8217;t listening to the likes of you.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why Obama&#8217;s talking up various kinds of education reform among which is more charters. His state senate district was the south side of Chicago just the sort of place that&#8217;s been failed by the education system for decades.</p>
<p>You can bet that when Obama set foot in some little, local church one of the things he heard about was the lousy state of the education system and what he also heard about was how good kids were doing in charters. And how happy parents were their kids was in those charter.</p>
<p>But you keep repeating the NEA talking points. Maybe not quite yet but one day soon you&#8217;ll realize that you&#8217;re the only person listening to you.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike in Texas</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/11/charter-does-more-with-same-dollars/#comment-52215</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike in Texas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 13:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11998#comment-52215</guid>
		<description>No Allen the point is charters can spend money on puff propaganda pieces which make claims that aren&#039;t true.  That&#039;s in addition to the advantages they already have over public schools, being able to pick and choose their students AND being able to expel anyone who doesn&#039;t fit their idea of a student.

We have a charter here that gets MORE than the state average per student and it gets an award for financial efficiency.  I have to admit it takes a set to make that kind of claim.

Gee, they must be the only school in CA that has afterschool programs and computer-aided instruction.  Why didn&#039;t the public schools think of that (sarcasm on)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No Allen the point is charters can spend money on puff propaganda pieces which make claims that aren&#8217;t true.  That&#8217;s in addition to the advantages they already have over public schools, being able to pick and choose their students AND being able to expel anyone who doesn&#8217;t fit their idea of a student.</p>
<p>We have a charter here that gets MORE than the state average per student and it gets an award for financial efficiency.  I have to admit it takes a set to make that kind of claim.</p>
<p>Gee, they must be the only school in CA that has afterschool programs and computer-aided instruction.  Why didn&#8217;t the public schools think of that (sarcasm on)?</p>
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		<title>By: allen</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/11/charter-does-more-with-same-dollars/#comment-52214</link>
		<dc:creator>allen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Nov 2009 12:53:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The underlying point is that charters, not being buried within the comforting invulnerability of a district, live and die on the basis of their appeal to the parents with school-age children.

Right now school districts provide a nice performance &quot;umbrella&quot; so charters can be pretty lousy and still be better then district schools. But as the number of charters increases they&#039;ll inevitably start to compete with each other and then excellence becomes less a matter of personal pride and more a matter of survival.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The underlying point is that charters, not being buried within the comforting invulnerability of a district, live and die on the basis of their appeal to the parents with school-age children.</p>
<p>Right now school districts provide a nice performance &#8220;umbrella&#8221; so charters can be pretty lousy and still be better then district schools. But as the number of charters increases they&#8217;ll inevitably start to compete with each other and then excellence becomes less a matter of personal pride and more a matter of survival.</p>
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