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	<title>Comments on: What to do about math</title>
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	<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/what-to-do-about-math/</link>
	<description>Thinking and Linking by Joanne Jacobs</description>
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		<title>By: Cassyt</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/what-to-do-about-math/#comment-51422</link>
		<dc:creator>Cassyt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 21:49:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11611#comment-51422</guid>
		<description>Mike in Texas
From the CA state standards(Which are considered reasonable)

Third grade Number Sense 2.1
&quot;Find the sum or difference of two whole numbers between 0 and 10,000.&quot;

Grade 3 Mathematical Reasoning 1.1
&quot;Analyze problems by identifying relationships, distinguishing relevant from irrelevant information, sequencing and prioritizing information, and observing patterns.&quot;

Grade 4 Mathematical Reasoning 1.2
&quot;Determine when and how to break a problem into simpler parts.&quot;

The problem would probably be considered 3rd grade level under CA standards.

14 + 12 = 26
26 + 12 = 38
38 + 12 = ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike in Texas<br />
From the CA state standards(Which are considered reasonable)</p>
<p>Third grade Number Sense 2.1<br />
&#8220;Find the sum or difference of two whole numbers between 0 and 10,000.&#8221;</p>
<p>Grade 3 Mathematical Reasoning 1.1<br />
&#8220;Analyze problems by identifying relationships, distinguishing relevant from irrelevant information, sequencing and prioritizing information, and observing patterns.&#8221;</p>
<p>Grade 4 Mathematical Reasoning 1.2<br />
&#8220;Determine when and how to break a problem into simpler parts.&#8221;</p>
<p>The problem would probably be considered 3rd grade level under CA standards.</p>
<p>14 + 12 = 26<br />
26 + 12 = 38<br />
38 + 12 = ?</p>
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		<title>By: Mike in Texas</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/what-to-do-about-math/#comment-51421</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike in Texas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 23:22:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11611#comment-51421</guid>
		<description>Steve H,

I see you failed to answer any of my questions.  Is this a reasonable expectation that a child in the 4th grade will know how to do this?  Is it a standard they have been taught?

BTW, while the problem may seem simple to you remember that your typical 4th grader is 9 years old.  In effect this problem asks them to do a multi-step process to arrive at the correct answer.  Were YOU capable of doing that when you were 9 years old.

As a 4th grade math teacher I say it&#039;s a poorly written question.  If you want them them</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve H,</p>
<p>I see you failed to answer any of my questions.  Is this a reasonable expectation that a child in the 4th grade will know how to do this?  Is it a standard they have been taught?</p>
<p>BTW, while the problem may seem simple to you remember that your typical 4th grader is 9 years old.  In effect this problem asks them to do a multi-step process to arrive at the correct answer.  Were YOU capable of doing that when you were 9 years old.</p>
<p>As a 4th grade math teacher I say it&#8217;s a poorly written question.  If you want them them</p>
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		<title>By: Malcolm Kirkpatrick</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/what-to-do-about-math/#comment-51420</link>
		<dc:creator>Malcolm Kirkpatrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:06:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11611#comment-51420</guid>
		<description>Laura,

Thanks for the kind words. Good luck to you.

Here are my recommedations (in increasing level of difficulty):
1) Use no US Math textbooks. They are all gaudy, ponderous, overpriced crap. Use Singapore Math (textbooks are available) or the Hong Kong, Russian, Hungarian, or Czech equivalent.
2) Abandon College of Education course requirements (hire anyone with a Math-oriented degree, like Math, Physics, Chemistry, Economics).
3) Replace probationary status with a two-year stint as teacher&#039;s aide, department gofer, and in-house substitute. Hire those who work out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Laura,</p>
<p>Thanks for the kind words. Good luck to you.</p>
<p>Here are my recommedations (in increasing level of difficulty):<br />
1) Use no US Math textbooks. They are all gaudy, ponderous, overpriced crap. Use Singapore Math (textbooks are available) or the Hong Kong, Russian, Hungarian, or Czech equivalent.<br />
2) Abandon College of Education course requirements (hire anyone with a Math-oriented degree, like Math, Physics, Chemistry, Economics).<br />
3) Replace probationary status with a two-year stint as teacher&#8217;s aide, department gofer, and in-house substitute. Hire those who work out.</p>
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		<title>By: SteveH</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/what-to-do-about-math/#comment-51419</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 02:01:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11611#comment-51419</guid>
		<description>The thread is about math, if you didn&#039;t know. Now you are saying that you were off topic and your comment had nothing to do with math? I see you are still an apologist for low expectations. Everyone should go to the web site and see how low they are. They have some reading examples there too. Judge for yourself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The thread is about math, if you didn&#8217;t know. Now you are saying that you were off topic and your comment had nothing to do with math? I see you are still an apologist for low expectations. Everyone should go to the web site and see how low they are. They have some reading examples there too. Judge for yourself.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike in Texas</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/what-to-do-about-math/#comment-51418</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike in Texas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 23:10:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11611#comment-51418</guid>
		<description>SteveH,

Did you fail to notice I was mentioning the &quot;READING&quot; test, not the Math?  Was my writing on too high a level for you?

Is this a valid skill to expect 4th graders to know?  Is skip counting by 12s part of the curriculum standards for every state?  If not the kids may have never seen a problem like this before and not know how to solve it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SteveH,</p>
<p>Did you fail to notice I was mentioning the &#8220;READING&#8221; test, not the Math?  Was my writing on too high a level for you?</p>
<p>Is this a valid skill to expect 4th graders to know?  Is skip counting by 12s part of the curriculum standards for every state?  If not the kids may have never seen a problem like this before and not know how to solve it.</p>
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		<title>By: SteveH</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/what-to-do-about-math/#comment-51417</link>
		<dc:creator>SteveH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:55:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11611#comment-51417</guid>
		<description>Are you as dumb as our fourth graders? Try for yourself.

http://nationsreportcard.gov/math_2007/m0017.asp

It makes you wonder how bad &quot;Basic&quot; is.

Here is one of the fourth grade questions. Only 55% got this correct.


14, 26, 38, ______ , ______


The numbers in the pattern above are increasing by 12. Which of these numbers is part of the pattern?


 A. 52
 B. 58
 C. 60
 D. 62


They GIVE you the pattern, even after all of the effort they put in on emphasizing patterns.


It must be the 7th grade reading level. That&#039;s it. Let&#039;s see if we can get kids to tie their shoes by the end of 3rd grade. Gee, I don&#039;t know. There must be something mysterious about it. This is not about discovery, direct instruction, or teaching with hand puppets. It&#039;s about expecting any level of accountability from our schools.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are you as dumb as our fourth graders? Try for yourself.</p>
<p><a href="http://nationsreportcard.gov/math_2007/m0017.asp" rel="nofollow">http://nationsreportcard.gov/math_2007/m0017.asp</a></p>
<p>It makes you wonder how bad &#8220;Basic&#8221; is.</p>
<p>Here is one of the fourth grade questions. Only 55% got this correct.</p>
<p>14, 26, 38, ______ , ______</p>
<p>The numbers in the pattern above are increasing by 12. Which of these numbers is part of the pattern?</p>
<p> A. 52<br />
 B. 58<br />
 C. 60<br />
 D. 62</p>
<p>They GIVE you the pattern, even after all of the effort they put in on emphasizing patterns.</p>
<p>It must be the 7th grade reading level. That&#8217;s it. Let&#8217;s see if we can get kids to tie their shoes by the end of 3rd grade. Gee, I don&#8217;t know. There must be something mysterious about it. This is not about discovery, direct instruction, or teaching with hand puppets. It&#8217;s about expecting any level of accountability from our schools.</p>
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		<title>By: PISA and TIMSS and NAEP&#8230;oh my! &#171; STEM-ology</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/what-to-do-about-math/#comment-51416</link>
		<dc:creator>PISA and TIMSS and NAEP&#8230;oh my! &#171; STEM-ology</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:25:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11611#comment-51416</guid>
		<description>[...] Schneider&#8217;s remarks here came out before last week&#8217;s release of NAEP results in math, which can hardly have been reassuring. If you&#8217;re just catching up on the NAEP release, Alexander Russo has a good summary of the reaction, as does Joanne Jacobs. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Schneider&#8217;s remarks here came out before last week&#8217;s release of NAEP results in math, which can hardly have been reassuring. If you&#8217;re just catching up on the NAEP release, Alexander Russo has a good summary of the reaction, as does Joanne Jacobs. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Malcolm Kirkpatrick</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/what-to-do-about-math/#comment-51415</link>
		<dc:creator>Malcolm Kirkpatrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 11:37:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11611#comment-51415</guid>
		<description>(Mike): &quot;If the achievement levels are nonsense what makes you think it would be a valid measurement of anything.&quot;

The levels (cut-off points) are arbitrary, and the definitions of &quot;advanced&quot;, &quot;proficient&quot;, and &quot;basic&quot; may be dubious, but the tests measure Reading or Math ability (not perfectly, but nothing&#039;s perfect). The measures themselves can be correlated with institutional variables to generate useful information.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Mike): &#8220;If the achievement levels are nonsense what makes you think it would be a valid measurement of anything.&#8221;</p>
<p>The levels (cut-off points) are arbitrary, and the definitions of &#8220;advanced&#8221;, &#8220;proficient&#8221;, and &#8220;basic&#8221; may be dubious, but the tests measure Reading or Math ability (not perfectly, but nothing&#8217;s perfect). The measures themselves can be correlated with institutional variables to generate useful information.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike in Texas</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/what-to-do-about-math/#comment-51414</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike in Texas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 19:40:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11611#comment-51414</guid>
		<description>Malcolm,

If the achievement levels are nonsense what makes you think it would be a valid measurement of anything.

I&#039;ve done a readability analysis of one of the reading samples, it was from the 4thgrade reading test and was almost on a 7th grade reading level.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Malcolm,</p>
<p>If the achievement levels are nonsense what makes you think it would be a valid measurement of anything.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve done a readability analysis of one of the reading samples, it was from the 4thgrade reading test and was almost on a 7th grade reading level.</p>
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		<title>By: Malcolm Kirkpatrick</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/what-to-do-about-math/#comment-51413</link>
		<dc:creator>Malcolm Kirkpatrick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 19:05:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11611#comment-51413</guid>
		<description>Mike,

Thanks. I do not know enough about the qualifications of the NAGB to express any opinion on their mathematical competence. I agree that the proficiency levels are nonsense. That does not make them useless as relative measures of school effectiveness. By analogy, suppose someone sets arbitrary levels of health, as measured by resting pulse rate. Set &quot;athletic&quot; at 55 bpm, &quot;fit&quot; at 70 bpm, and &quot;at risk&quot; at 85 bpm. State-by-State comparisons of &quot;population below (i.e., better than) athletic&quot; or &quot;population above (worse than) at-risk&quot; could provide a lot of information, when correlated with diet, daily sun exposure, etc. even if the cut-off points are arbitraty and subject to exceptions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike,</p>
<p>Thanks. I do not know enough about the qualifications of the NAGB to express any opinion on their mathematical competence. I agree that the proficiency levels are nonsense. That does not make them useless as relative measures of school effectiveness. By analogy, suppose someone sets arbitrary levels of health, as measured by resting pulse rate. Set &#8220;athletic&#8221; at 55 bpm, &#8220;fit&#8221; at 70 bpm, and &#8220;at risk&#8221; at 85 bpm. State-by-State comparisons of &#8220;population below (i.e., better than) athletic&#8221; or &#8220;population above (worse than) at-risk&#8221; could provide a lot of information, when correlated with diet, daily sun exposure, etc. even if the cut-off points are arbitraty and subject to exceptions.</p>
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