Comments on: The three-year degree http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/the-three-year-degree/ Thinking and Linking by Joanne Jacobs Fri, 10 Feb 2012 04:51:22 +0000 hourly 1 By: Tracy W http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/the-three-year-degree/#comment-51644 Tracy W Tue, 27 Oct 2009 09:29:46 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11680#comment-51644 My engineering degree was 36 contact hours a week in the first professional year. (There's an intermediate year where you take various freshman courses with some requirements in physics, maths and chemistry, that's the year I skipped. Then there's 3 professional years). The weekly hour total was lower the second two years, but still in the high 20s. The first professional year was fully scheduled, with no optional courses. The remaining two years were scheduled so you could take any combination of courses for your professional year from the engineering department you were doing your degree in, they also scheduled the courses so you could fit in the maths courses which were popular amongst the engineering students, and the philosophy department worked out its scheduling so you could take philosophy courses for your 2 options. So from a student's point of view, scheduling was easy as long as you stuck to engineering, maths and philosophy. And the required course component from the engineering department was heavy enough that that was easy enough to do. Summers were spent doing the work experience component of the degree. My engineering degree was 36 contact hours a week in the first professional year. (There’s an intermediate year where you take various freshman courses with some requirements in physics, maths and chemistry, that’s the year I skipped. Then there’s 3 professional years). The weekly hour total was lower the second two years, but still in the high 20s. The first professional year was fully scheduled, with no optional courses. The remaining two years were scheduled so you could take any combination of courses for your professional year from the engineering department you were doing your degree in, they also scheduled the courses so you could fit in the maths courses which were popular amongst the engineering students, and the philosophy department worked out its scheduling so you could take philosophy courses for your 2 options. So from a student’s point of view, scheduling was easy as long as you stuck to engineering, maths and philosophy. And the required course component from the engineering department was heavy enough that that was easy enough to do.

Summers were spent doing the work experience component of the degree.

]]> By: Whatever http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/the-three-year-degree/#comment-51643 Whatever Tue, 27 Oct 2009 03:21:01 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11680#comment-51643 My engineering degree required 136 hours. I graduated from one of the smallest Division I schools. My story is similar to Rob's. I came in with 19 AP hours, took 16-19 hours per semester (but no summer sections), and graduated in 4 years with 155 hours. Because my alma mater is so small, some majors have only a handful of students each year. For example, in 2007, there was exactly one BS in Materials Science awarded, and I can't find any record of any BSMS being awarded in 2008. Because of the low number of students majoring in some fields, some classes are offered in only one semester every two years. Almost no courses are offered in summer sessions. It would be an absolute nightmare to try to schedule that into a three-year degree, not to mention taking 27 credit hours per semester! My engineering degree required 136 hours. I graduated from one of the smallest Division I schools. My story is similar to Rob’s. I came in with 19 AP hours, took 16-19 hours per semester (but no summer sections), and graduated in 4 years with 155 hours. Because my alma mater is so small, some majors have only a handful of students each year. For example, in 2007, there was exactly one BS in Materials Science awarded, and I can’t find any record of any BSMS being awarded in 2008. Because of the low number of students majoring in some fields, some classes are offered in only one semester every two years. Almost no courses are offered in summer sessions. It would be an absolute nightmare to try to schedule that into a three-year degree, not to mention taking 27 credit hours per semester!

]]> By: Rob http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/the-three-year-degree/#comment-51642 Rob Mon, 26 Oct 2009 18:44:48 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11680#comment-51642 This wouldn't work for a lot of engineering programs (and probably others, I wouldn't know). Lots of them, such as aerospace engineering or specialized materials science programs, don't have all that many students. This means that many courses are not even offered in the summer, since there aren't enough students to take them. Some are only offered for one semester a year. It would be a nightmare to try and schedule a degree around all of those sections fixed in time. Plus, one little slip and you spend a whole extra semester (maybe two, in the worst case) waiting for that one course to finish your degree. Also, some of those degrees require an awful lot of hours, you couldn't squeeze them into three years. I tested out of 9 hours, took 16-19 hours each semester and I still needed two summer sections to finish in four years. I guess Hartwick doesn't offer any rigorous degrees... This wouldn’t work for a lot of engineering programs (and probably others, I wouldn’t know). Lots of them, such as aerospace engineering or specialized materials science programs, don’t have all that many students. This means that many courses are not even offered in the summer, since there aren’t enough students to take them. Some are only offered for one semester a year. It would be a nightmare to try and schedule a degree around all of those sections fixed in time. Plus, one little slip and you spend a whole extra semester (maybe two, in the worst case) waiting for that one course to finish your degree.

Also, some of those degrees require an awful lot of hours, you couldn’t squeeze them into three years. I tested out of 9 hours, took 16-19 hours each semester and I still needed two summer sections to finish in four years. I guess Hartwick doesn’t offer any rigorous degrees…

]]> By: Tracy W http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/the-three-year-degree/#comment-51641 Tracy W Mon, 26 Oct 2009 15:08:25 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11680#comment-51641 George - calculus is part of the maths papers. A bit under 80% take the maths qualification at age 15 (year 11) and about 70% of the total student population pass (so about 90% who take the paper pass). It varies from year to year of course. See <a href="http://www.educationcounts.govt.nz/publications/schooling/25052/7" rel="nofollow">http://www.educationcounts.govt.nz/publications/schooling/25052/7</a> George – calculus is part of the maths papers. A bit under 80% take the maths qualification at age 15 (year 11) and about 70% of the total student population pass (so about 90% who take the paper pass). It varies from year to year of course. See http://www.educationcounts.govt.nz/publications/schooling/25052/7

]]> By: Michael E. Lopez, Esq. http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/the-three-year-degree/#comment-51640 Michael E. Lopez, Esq. Mon, 26 Oct 2009 14:38:56 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11680#comment-51640 It's little surprise that, as more and more students go to college and the total acquired knowledge/accomplishment values required for a degree necessarily drop to accommodate the skills of the broader population sample that an ever-larger number of students will be able to complete the new, easier standards in a shorter amount of time. It’s little surprise that, as more and more students go to college and the total acquired knowledge/accomplishment values required for a degree necessarily drop to accommodate the skills of the broader population sample that an ever-larger number of students will be able to complete the new, easier standards in a shorter amount of time.

]]> By: George Larson http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/the-three-year-degree/#comment-51639 George Larson Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:40:58 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11680#comment-51639 Tracy W What proportion of New Zealand high school students start Calculus at 15? Tracy W

What proportion of New Zealand high school students start Calculus at 15?

]]> By: Tracy W http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/the-three-year-degree/#comment-51638 Tracy W Mon, 26 Oct 2009 10:06:30 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11680#comment-51638 Three years is standard in NZ for a basic BSc, BCom or BA. I actually did my engineering degree in 3 years by doing well enough at the end of school exams to skip the first year at university, and that degree was accredited by both the US's Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineering (IEEE) and the UK's Institue of Electrical Engineering (IEE). I think the difference is that NZ high schools cover more, eg we started learning calculus at high school when I was 15. Three years is standard in NZ for a basic BSc, BCom or BA. I actually did my engineering degree in 3 years by doing well enough at the end of school exams to skip the first year at university, and that degree was accredited by both the US’s Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineering (IEEE) and the UK’s Institue of Electrical Engineering (IEE).

I think the difference is that NZ high schools cover more, eg we started learning calculus at high school when I was 15.

]]> By: Richard Aubrey http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/the-three-year-degree/#comment-51637 Richard Aubrey Sun, 25 Oct 2009 19:41:38 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11680#comment-51637 If, as with many schools, you pay tuition by the credit hour, the cost will be the same unless, 1, the unit cost drops, or, 2, you take fewer credits. That leaves living expenses. If you can get your education in three years, it means you'll have a job--pre 2008, that is--a year sooner and not be taking living expenses out of the folks, the sock, or the burger joint income. Don't see the economic benefit, and whatever cramming you have to do to get it done in three years might offset some of the benefit. If, as with many schools, you pay tuition by the credit hour, the cost will be the same unless, 1, the unit cost drops, or, 2, you take fewer credits.
That leaves living expenses. If you can get your education in three years, it means you’ll have a job–pre 2008, that is–a year sooner and not be taking living expenses out of the folks, the sock, or the burger joint income.
Don’t see the economic benefit, and whatever cramming you have to do to get it done in three years might offset some of the benefit.

]]> By: Bart http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/the-three-year-degree/#comment-51636 Bart Sun, 25 Oct 2009 17:29:23 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11680#comment-51636 I like Linda F.'s idea. Better yet, extend this idea by making it the normal route to transfer from 4-year state colleges to graduate programs in top-end public institutions. You could probably save at least a half year by dropping some of the nonsensical upper division elective requirements. I like Linda F.’s idea. Better yet, extend this idea by making it the normal route to transfer from 4-year state colleges to graduate programs in top-end public institutions.

You could probably save at least a half year by dropping some of the nonsensical upper division elective requirements.

]]> By: momof4 http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/the-three-year-degree/#comment-51635 momof4 Sun, 25 Oct 2009 14:01:55 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11680#comment-51635 For those kids planning to go on to grad or professional schools, finishing undergrad degrees in 3 years makes sense. Lots of these kids enter with advanced standing (AP, IB or college courses) and could easily do it. Some 7-year pre-med/med school programs have existed for years; some of my kids' classmates went to the Northwestern program, for example. Of course, these programs only take the top candidates, who must keep undergrad grades above a specified GPA in order to admitted to med school. I'm sure law schools could do the same thing (maybe they do), as well as other grad programs. It wouldn't work for everyone, but I like having lots of options. Whether it's k-12 or college, the one-size-fits-all model doesn't fit lots of kids. As for the money angle, for the colleges, I'd like to see drastic cuts in staff (how many diversity officers and residence hall staff are really necessary?) and facilities. Kids who choose schools based on the student center, the cafeteria offerings and the fitness center probably don't belong in college anyway. For those kids planning to go on to grad or professional schools, finishing undergrad degrees in 3 years makes sense. Lots of these kids enter with advanced standing (AP, IB or college courses) and could easily do it. Some 7-year pre-med/med school programs have existed for years; some of my kids’ classmates went to the Northwestern program, for example. Of course, these programs only take the top candidates, who must keep undergrad grades above a specified GPA in order to admitted to med school. I’m sure law schools could do the same thing (maybe they do), as well as other grad programs. It wouldn’t work for everyone, but I like having lots of options. Whether it’s k-12 or college, the one-size-fits-all model doesn’t fit lots of kids. As for the money angle, for the colleges, I’d like to see drastic cuts in staff (how many diversity officers and residence hall staff are really necessary?) and facilities. Kids who choose schools based on the student center, the cafeteria offerings and the fitness center probably don’t belong in college anyway.

]]>