Comments on: Failing math and science http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/failing-math-and-science/ Thinking and Linking by Joanne Jacobs Fri, 10 Feb 2012 04:51:22 +0000 hourly 1 By: Failing math and science « Joanne Jacobs « Blogging http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/failing-math-and-science/#comment-51772 Failing math and science « Joanne Jacobs « Blogging Tue, 03 Nov 2009 22:52:59 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11740#comment-51772 [...] Read the original post:  Failing math and science « Joanne Jacobs [...] [...] Read the original post:  Failing math and science « Joanne Jacobs [...]

]]> By: uberVU - social comments http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/failing-math-and-science/#comment-51771 uberVU - social comments Sat, 31 Oct 2009 22:43:28 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11740#comment-51771 <strong>Social comments and analytics for this post...</strong> This post was mentioned on Twitter by kriley19: Joanne Jacobs: Failing math and science http://bit.ly/1XS6Dw Full http://bit.ly/2TGJUi... Social comments and analytics for this post…

This post was mentioned on Twitter by kriley19: Joanne Jacobs: Failing math and science http://bit.ly/1XS6Dw Full http://bit.ly/2TGJUi...

]]> By: Failing math and science « Joanne Jacobs | boardgame http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/failing-math-and-science/#comment-51770 Failing math and science « Joanne Jacobs | boardgame Sat, 31 Oct 2009 05:14:48 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11740#comment-51770 [...] The rest is here: Failing math and science « Joanne Jacobs [...] [...] The rest is here: Failing math and science « Joanne Jacobs [...]

]]> By: SteveH http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/failing-math-and-science/#comment-51769 SteveH Sat, 31 Oct 2009 02:46:01 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11740#comment-51769 "That would be better than fake algebra built on sand." This is a strawman. Nobody is talking about fake algebra, although that's what many students get nowadays. The NMAP defined a proper course of "School Algebra" that should be reached by 8th or 9th grade (at the latest) for most all students. A goal of fractions, decimals, and percentages by the end of eighth grade is just not enough. This is a sixth grade goal. Most schools provide slower routes usually based on an end of 6th grade math track placement test, but the slower tracks are often tracks to nowhere because the kids are still struggling with big gaps in their basic skills and knowledge. A slower track doesn't fix a bad curriculum. The kids who get on the top math track usually get help at home or with tutors. The problem is not that schools don't offer algebra I in 8th grade. The problem is that they are often watered down and the schools don't think that most kids are smart enough to get there. The goal of the NMAP was to define what a proper course in algegra is and when most students are capable of taking it. This tackles the problem of watered down algebra courses, but it doesn't apply much pressure on schools to fix their lousy K-6 math curricula. Setting the goal of mastery of fractions, decimals, and percentages by the end of 8th grade doesn't ensure mastery or force any changes in the lower grades, and it waters down the expectations. The assumption seems to be that if you give schools more time, then proper mastery will happen. Not a chance. “That would be better than fake algebra built on sand.”

This is a strawman. Nobody is talking about fake algebra, although that’s what many students get nowadays. The NMAP defined a proper course of “School Algebra” that should be reached by 8th or 9th grade (at the latest) for most all students. A goal of fractions, decimals, and percentages by the end of eighth grade is just not enough. This is a sixth grade goal.

Most schools provide slower routes usually based on an end of 6th grade math track placement test, but the slower tracks are often tracks to nowhere because the kids are still struggling with big gaps in their basic skills and knowledge. A slower track doesn’t fix a bad curriculum. The kids who get on the top math track usually get help at home or with tutors.

The problem is not that schools don’t offer algebra I in 8th grade. The problem is that they are often watered down and the schools don’t think that most kids are smart enough to get there. The goal of the NMAP was to define what a proper course in algegra is and when most students are capable of taking it. This tackles the problem of watered down algebra courses, but it doesn’t apply much pressure on schools to fix their lousy K-6 math curricula. Setting the goal of mastery of fractions, decimals, and percentages by the end of 8th grade doesn’t ensure mastery or force any changes in the lower grades, and it waters down the expectations. The assumption seems to be that if you give schools more time, then proper mastery will happen. Not a chance.

]]> By: momof4 http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/failing-math-and-science/#comment-51768 momof4 Fri, 30 Oct 2009 21:19:25 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11740#comment-51768 The whole idea that "everyone" should have algebra I in 8th grade, because it leads to various successes down the line, is based on a flawed assumption. The original findings that kids who took algebra I in 8th grade did better on SAT, GPA or whatever else, was an entirely predictable CORRELATION. At that time, ONLY the kids on the honors/AP math track took agebra (typically offered only at honors level) in 8th grade. It was therefore to be expected that they would do better on various other measures, as well; 8th-grade algebra was merely a proxy variable for identifying the top of the academic pile. The rush to assume a causal relationship was also seen with self-esteem, 6th-grade Latin, debate team, number of books at home etc., as well. Algebra, more often "algebra", in 8th grade is not a magic bullet. That being said, I am sure that far more kids can be PREPARED AND READY for it; that means mastery of all the foundational knowledge and skills. A significant number of kids will be ready by 6th or 7th grade, more in 8th and some not until later. Half of all kids are below average and some of them would be much better served by mastery of math through fractions, decimals and percentages by the end of 8th grade. That would be better than fake algebra built on sand. The whole idea that “everyone” should have algebra I in 8th grade, because it leads to various successes down the line, is based on a flawed assumption. The original findings that kids who took algebra I in 8th grade did better on SAT, GPA or whatever else, was an entirely predictable CORRELATION. At that time, ONLY the kids on the honors/AP math track took agebra (typically offered only at honors level) in 8th grade. It was therefore to be expected that they would do better on various other measures, as well; 8th-grade algebra was merely a proxy variable for identifying the top of the academic pile. The rush to assume a causal relationship was also seen with self-esteem, 6th-grade Latin, debate team, number of books at home etc., as well. Algebra, more often “algebra”, in 8th grade is not a magic bullet.

That being said, I am sure that far more kids can be PREPARED AND READY for it; that means mastery of all the foundational knowledge and skills. A significant number of kids will be ready by 6th or 7th grade, more in 8th and some not until later. Half of all kids are below average and some of them would be much better served by mastery of math through fractions, decimals and percentages by the end of 8th grade. That would be better than fake algebra built on sand.

]]> By: Susan http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/failing-math-and-science/#comment-51767 Susan Fri, 30 Oct 2009 15:33:35 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11740#comment-51767 When my son's 8th grade state tests came in, I found it interesting that he had missed almost half of the "probability" and "data" questions in the math section. Since he is accelerated (pre-algebra by 4th grade, algebra in the 5th), he missed out on the years of marble guessing, stem and leaf plots, and baby stats. He did, however, get a lot of algebra after demonstrating that he had mastered arithmetic. The main reason I found it funny is that he's presently making A's in his AP Stats class as a freshman in high school, even though according to the state tests, he has a problem. I don't think he still knows what a stem and leaf plot is. When my son’s 8th grade state tests came in, I found it interesting that he had missed almost half of the “probability” and “data” questions in the math section. Since he is accelerated (pre-algebra by 4th grade, algebra in the 5th), he missed out on the years of marble guessing, stem and leaf plots, and baby stats. He did, however, get a lot of algebra after demonstrating that he had mastered arithmetic.

The main reason I found it funny is that he’s presently making A’s in his AP Stats class as a freshman in high school, even though according to the state tests, he has a problem.

I don’t think he still knows what a stem and leaf plot is.

]]> By: Rob Swedenborg http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/failing-math-and-science/#comment-51766 Rob Swedenborg Fri, 30 Oct 2009 15:22:25 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11740#comment-51766 In response to Andrew, all states already have standards which are at least designed to reach an 8th grade level of proficiency. And look at where that has gotten us. Do you really want to guarantee that we remain below most other countries on the international tests? The high number of students needing remedial math in college is a discrace, especially when statistics show that they are far less likely to graduate from college than those who are already prepared for college math. None of these remedial students failed their math placement test because of a lack on knowlege about "statistics". They failed because they lacked basic skills. Let's keep our priorities straight. In response to Andrew, all states already have standards which are at least designed to reach an 8th grade level of proficiency. And look at where that has gotten us. Do you really want to guarantee that we remain below most other countries on the international tests?
The high number of students needing remedial math in college is a discrace, especially when statistics show that they are far less likely to graduate from college than those who are already prepared for college math. None of these remedial students failed their math placement test because of a lack on knowlege about “statistics”. They failed because they lacked basic skills. Let’s keep our priorities straight.

]]> By: MOMwithAbrain http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/failing-math-and-science/#comment-51765 MOMwithAbrain Fri, 30 Oct 2009 13:29:28 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11740#comment-51765 I talked to a 5th grade teacher the other day who said she graduated college with a degree in education and had no idea how to multiply/divide/add/subtract fractions. Something is wrong when you can graduate college with a degree in teaching and not know basic math facts!! Then I have to listen to school board members gleefully say how happy they are that 3rd graders are learning geometry and algebra! Really? Because when I taught algebra the best students knew their math facts. They memorized their math facts and knew how to mulitiply/divide fractions which is CRITICAL in algebra. This same school board member ignored the fact that their school used Everyday math which doesn't allow for mastery of basic math facts. I guess she'll find out the hard way, when her kids get to high school and can't work algebra problems because they have no idea how to multiply/divide fractions! I talked to a 5th grade teacher the other day who said she graduated college with a degree in education and had no idea how to multiply/divide/add/subtract fractions.
Something is wrong when you can graduate college with a degree in teaching and not know basic math facts!!
Then I have to listen to school board members gleefully say how happy they are that 3rd graders are learning geometry and algebra! Really? Because when I taught algebra the best students knew their math facts. They memorized their math facts and knew how to mulitiply/divide fractions which is CRITICAL in algebra. This same school board member ignored the fact that their school used Everyday math which doesn’t allow for mastery of basic math facts.
I guess she’ll find out the hard way, when her kids get to high school and can’t work algebra problems because they have no idea how to multiply/divide fractions!

]]> By: SteveH http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/failing-math-and-science/#comment-51764 SteveH Fri, 30 Oct 2009 12:55:03 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11740#comment-51764 "...yet my children started learnig about the mean, median, mode, range and outlier since third grade and they are still learning about it in seventh grade." A friend of mine once complained that her three kids (in different grades) were covering the same material in math. Guess which curriculum I'm talking about. Yup, Everyday Math. It's what I call repeated partial learning. The problem is not statistics. It goes much deeper than that. It's about a dislike of content and mastery of skills. They want math to be a pump and not a filter, so they buy into spiral curricula like EM and then "trust the spiral". Once kids get old enough (7th grade), it's easier to blame the kids (and parents and society and poverty). All they do is point to the kids who are doing well. They should ask those kids why they do well. My son would tell them that his father was the one who used Singapore Math at home and ensured mastery. And they wonder where the academic gap comes from. “…yet my children started learnig about the mean, median, mode, range and outlier since third grade and they are still learning about it in seventh grade.”

A friend of mine once complained that her three kids (in different grades) were covering the same material in math. Guess which curriculum I’m talking about. Yup, Everyday Math. It’s what I call repeated partial learning. The problem is not statistics. It goes much deeper than that. It’s about a dislike of content and mastery of skills. They want math to be a pump and not a filter, so they buy into spiral curricula like EM and then “trust the spiral”. Once kids get old enough (7th grade), it’s easier to blame the kids (and parents and society and poverty). All they do is point to the kids who are doing well. They should ask those kids why they do well. My son would tell them that his father was the one who used Singapore Math at home and ensured mastery. And they wonder where the academic gap comes from.

]]> By: Roger Sweeny http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/10/failing-math-and-science/#comment-51763 Roger Sweeny Fri, 30 Oct 2009 12:44:52 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=11740#comment-51763 Andrew, you are so, so right. Andrew, you are so, so right.

]]>