Comments on: Changing students to change schools http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/09/changing-students-to-change-schools/ Thinking and Linking by Joanne Jacobs Fri, 10 Feb 2012 04:51:22 +0000 hourly 1 By: dkzody http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/09/changing-students-to-change-schools/#comment-50014 dkzody Thu, 03 Sep 2009 01:49:51 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=10876#comment-50014 I have been saying this for the last 10 years--send me a better student and I can do a better job. Sure enough, when I get a class full of kids who all want to learn, then we go gangbusters. There are some classes where my success rate is huge and it's because of the kids. This from someone who has taught in a tough inner city school for 20 years. Poverty is not the issue, it's the mindset. I have been saying this for the last 10 years–send me a better student and I can do a better job. Sure enough, when I get a class full of kids who all want to learn, then we go gangbusters. There are some classes where my success rate is huge and it’s because of the kids. This from someone who has taught in a tough inner city school for 20 years. Poverty is not the issue, it’s the mindset.

]]> By: Dennis Fermoyle http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/09/changing-students-to-change-schools/#comment-50013 Dennis Fermoyle Thu, 03 Sep 2009 00:47:14 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=10876#comment-50013 I understand what both Trotter and Kahlenberg were saying. Although Kahlenberg was much more eloquent, I have felt the frustration that Trotter expressed. I've never taught in a really rough school, but I have had classes from time to time with a very bad mix of students. The sad fact is that it doesn't take very many disruptive kids to make learning impossible for an entire classroom. Believe me, the students Trotter was talking about should not be viewed as victims; their classmates should be. The schools I've read about that have been able to turn things around in areas where there are a lot of disadvantaged kids have usually been charter schools, and they have been able to practice tough discipline--probably because they're given some leeway on some of the rules that the rest of us have to follow. As a teacher in one of those schools told one unruly student, "If you're going to act like that, you won't be able to stay here." If we ever want to turn things around in regular old neighborhood public schools we are so concerned about, teachers in those schools need to be given the power to say the same thing and mean it. I understand what both Trotter and Kahlenberg were saying. Although Kahlenberg was much more eloquent, I have felt the frustration that Trotter expressed. I’ve never taught in a really rough school, but I have had classes from time to time with a very bad mix of students. The sad fact is that it doesn’t take very many disruptive kids to make learning impossible for an entire classroom. Believe me, the students Trotter was talking about should not be viewed as victims; their classmates should be. The schools I’ve read about that have been able to turn things around in areas where there are a lot of disadvantaged kids have usually been charter schools, and they have been able to practice tough discipline–probably because they’re given some leeway on some of the rules that the rest of us have to follow. As a teacher in one of those schools told one unruly student, “If you’re going to act like that, you won’t be able to stay here.” If we ever want to turn things around in regular old neighborhood public schools we are so concerned about, teachers in those schools need to be given the power to say the same thing and mean it.

]]> By: Mike in Texas http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/09/changing-students-to-change-schools/#comment-50012 Mike in Texas Wed, 02 Sep 2009 22:30:50 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=10876#comment-50012 It sounds like to me that Duncan is reaching for a way to ensure he looks correct in the policies he's pursuing. Many of the education "reformers" have already tried this route. Change the kids at the school by making it a "magnet" school (all the better to bring in the gifted and motivated students) and then declare your "reforms" a success. It sounds like to me that Duncan is reaching for a way to ensure he looks correct in the policies he’s pursuing.

Many of the education “reformers” have already tried this route. Change the kids at the school by making it a “magnet” school (all the better to bring in the gifted and motivated students) and then declare your “reforms” a success.

]]> By: Mia http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/09/changing-students-to-change-schools/#comment-50011 Mia Wed, 02 Sep 2009 20:08:47 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=10876#comment-50011 "It reminds me of Georgia Gov. Lester Maddox’s comment about the horrible state prisons" Interesting comparison. ;) “It reminds me of Georgia Gov. Lester Maddox’s comment about the horrible state prisons”

Interesting comparison. ;)

]]> By: Bart http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/09/changing-students-to-change-schools/#comment-50010 Bart Wed, 02 Sep 2009 16:19:14 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=10876#comment-50010 <i>“They are unmotivated and lazy. Yes, there are many incompetent and idiotic and mean administrators who need to go,” Trotter says. “There are even some bad teachers, but these are really rare. The problem starts with the students. What is Duncan going to do with some so-called students who act like miscreants each day?”</i> That's right, blame the victim. The problem is that Trotter's competent professionals have shown more success at "curing" the motivated and ambitious than the other way around. “They are unmotivated and lazy. Yes, there are many incompetent and idiotic and mean administrators who need to go,” Trotter says. “There are even some bad teachers, but these are really rare. The problem starts with the students. What is Duncan going to do with some so-called students who act like miscreants each day?”
That’s right, blame the victim. The problem is that Trotter’s competent professionals have shown more success at “curing” the motivated and ambitious than the other way around.

]]> By: Margo/Mom http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/09/changing-students-to-change-schools/#comment-50009 Margo/Mom Wed, 02 Sep 2009 15:25:01 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=10876#comment-50009 I think that the reality is that the "change the students" approach has experienced some limited success--whenever a mix of students has been accomplished. Historically, however, such efforts have not maintained long-term, as desegregation has demonstrated. Not only are there persistent lurkers in the wings waiting for their opportunity to push for some really racist/classist separations (and it seems I see more of these folks lately--not necessarily related to education), but most of us carry latent racist/classist perceptions of what a "good" education for our children looks like, and those with means drift away from the center (to the delight of realtors who can sell houses for more if they are in a "good" area). There are some parents who really prefer a mixed crowd--and these folks can provide a base for a limited number of "magnet" type schools. But, I have watched a number of these come and go in my district. Frequently the success of the school is personality based (centering on a principal), and I have seen dramatic changes in community support based on who was in charge. Currently my district simply doesn't have sufficient middle class and non-minority students to successfully integrate every school. On the other hand, I have spent most of my life working with populations of "others," the non-mainstream folks and my general experience has been that in any neighborhood there is likely to be "enough." Enough responsibility, enough intelligence, enough caring. What is difficult is learning to see the resources. When I hear teachers talking about how much time they have to spend "parenting," because their kids "don't get it at home," I know that they are not getting it. They are not at all atuned to what is actually going on for the majority of their kids. Yes--there may in fact be some parents who are a mess. I can testify that this is by no means unique to low-income neighborhoods--just easier to see. But the belief that only so much can be done is such a powerful limiting factor. Joanne is right--schools can be safe and welcoming places, with work. Not only do all parents care profoundly about this (all), but they can provide a powerful evaluative mirror as to whether or not this is the case. I think that the reality is that the “change the students” approach has experienced some limited success–whenever a mix of students has been accomplished. Historically, however, such efforts have not maintained long-term, as desegregation has demonstrated. Not only are there persistent lurkers in the wings waiting for their opportunity to push for some really racist/classist separations (and it seems I see more of these folks lately–not necessarily related to education), but most of us carry latent racist/classist perceptions of what a “good” education for our children looks like, and those with means drift away from the center (to the delight of realtors who can sell houses for more if they are in a “good” area).

There are some parents who really prefer a mixed crowd–and these folks can provide a base for a limited number of “magnet” type schools. But, I have watched a number of these come and go in my district. Frequently the success of the school is personality based (centering on a principal), and I have seen dramatic changes in community support based on who was in charge. Currently my district simply doesn’t have sufficient middle class and non-minority students to successfully integrate every school. On the other hand, I have spent most of my life working with populations of “others,” the non-mainstream folks and my general experience has been that in any neighborhood there is likely to be “enough.” Enough responsibility, enough intelligence, enough caring. What is difficult is learning to see the resources. When I hear teachers talking about how much time they have to spend “parenting,” because their kids “don’t get it at home,” I know that they are not getting it. They are not at all atuned to what is actually going on for the majority of their kids. Yes–there may in fact be some parents who are a mess. I can testify that this is by no means unique to low-income neighborhoods–just easier to see. But the belief that only so much can be done is such a powerful limiting factor. Joanne is right–schools can be safe and welcoming places, with work. Not only do all parents care profoundly about this (all), but they can provide a powerful evaluative mirror as to whether or not this is the case.

]]> By: allen http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/09/changing-students-to-change-schools/#comment-50008 allen Wed, 02 Sep 2009 12:14:19 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=10876#comment-50008 What's really nice about the "change the students" excuse is that the resulting bouts of explosive giggling cause the people making the excuse more and more to end up talking only to people who desperately want to believe the excuse. As the self-isolation increases the true believers and their leaders become increasingly irrelevant to the larger, societal discussion on education. There's a Greek-tragedy aspect to the situation in that the supporters of the educational status quo can hardly do anything else yet the inescapable action leads, inescapably, to ruin. Cool. What’s really nice about the “change the students” excuse is that the resulting bouts of explosive giggling cause the people making the excuse more and more to end up talking only to people who desperately want to believe the excuse. As the self-isolation increases the true believers and their leaders become increasingly irrelevant to the larger, societal discussion on education.

There’s a Greek-tragedy aspect to the situation in that the supporters of the educational status quo can hardly do anything else yet the inescapable action leads, inescapably, to ruin.

Cool.

]]> By: Michael http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/09/changing-students-to-change-schools/#comment-50007 Michael Wed, 02 Sep 2009 03:33:11 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=10876#comment-50007 Okay, I got my ed-ja-ma-cation in Raleigh (at least part of it) So to explain how this is somewhat successful in Raleigh you have to know the city. 1. Raleigh has a very small downtown area compared to the surrounding parts of the city. Raleigh in known for the “Research Triangle Park” which provides many middle to upper middle class jobs. So in this case there seems to be a big enough pool suburban middle class kids that want to attend a magnet school in the city. In reference to "there are no bad schools in Raleigh….." I guess it is all on how you define the term “bad” I can agree that the magnet schools helped out in the Raleigh area...but to say there are no bad schools, I think there were at least bad parts of the schools. Going to a magnet school close to a low socio economic status (SES) area was different than schools in the suburbs. We had a bit more violence and fighting than my friends' schools in the suburbs, we had more drugs, and it seemed students at the inner city magnet schools started sexual activity earlier. Positive notes were that the fighting and drugs were still minimum considering where the school was located. Students also had state of the art equipment, technology, opportunities for field trips and school projects that other schools just could not afford. Overall I think magnets schools helped to create an inner city school with dedicated teachers and an integrated SES. Okay, I got my ed-ja-ma-cation in Raleigh (at least part of it)
So to explain how this is somewhat successful in Raleigh you have to know the city.
1. Raleigh has a very small downtown area compared to the surrounding parts of the city.
Raleigh in known for the “Research Triangle Park” which provides many middle to upper middle class jobs. So in this case there seems to be a big enough pool suburban middle class kids that want to attend a magnet school in the city.

In reference to “there are no bad schools in Raleigh…..”
I guess it is all on how you define the term “bad”
I can agree that the magnet schools helped out in the Raleigh area…but to say there are no bad schools, I think there were at least bad parts of the schools.
Going to a magnet school close to a low socio economic status (SES) area was different than schools in the suburbs. We had a bit more violence and fighting than my friends’ schools in the suburbs, we had more drugs, and it seemed students at the inner city magnet schools started sexual activity earlier.
Positive notes were that the fighting and drugs were still minimum considering where the school was located. Students also had state of the art equipment, technology, opportunities for field trips and school projects that other schools just could not afford. Overall I think magnets schools helped to create an inner city school with dedicated teachers and an integrated SES.

]]> By: pm http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/09/changing-students-to-change-schools/#comment-50006 pm Wed, 02 Sep 2009 03:28:09 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=10876#comment-50006 Look at the API scores and demographics for Madison Elementary school in the Long Beach Unified School District since 1999. The economic demographics were roughly steady at 1/3 disadvantaged, the population shifted from more Caucasian students to a roughly equal proportion of Caucasian, Hispanic, and African American students. Since that time API scores have risen from 716 to 836. Over 800 means the school is meeting minimum CA standards. So at least some schools know how to improve results without cherry picking students . Look at the API scores and demographics for Madison Elementary school in the Long Beach Unified School District since 1999. The economic demographics were roughly steady at 1/3 disadvantaged, the population shifted from more Caucasian students to a roughly equal proportion of Caucasian, Hispanic, and African American students. Since that time API scores have risen from 716 to 836. Over 800 means the school is meeting minimum CA standards. So at least some schools know how to improve results without cherry picking students .

]]> By: gahrie http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/09/changing-students-to-change-schools/#comment-50005 gahrie Wed, 02 Sep 2009 01:17:26 +0000 http://www.joannejacobs.com/?p=10876#comment-50005 Step one is to restore the status of doing well academically and work to de-legitemize the thug life. Step one is to restore the status of doing well academically and work to de-legitemize the thug life.

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