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	<title>Comments on: Do schools create learning disabilities?</title>
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	<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/06/do-schools-create-learning-disabilities/</link>
	<description>Thinking and Linking by Joanne Jacobs</description>
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		<title>By: Lightly Seasoned</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/06/do-schools-create-learning-disabilities/#comment-48077</link>
		<dc:creator>Lightly Seasoned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 18:03:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=9978#comment-48077</guid>
		<description>Dunno.  You&#039;re referring to Worf, though, which is very whole language.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dunno.  You&#8217;re referring to Worf, though, which is very whole language.</p>
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		<title>By: CharterMom</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/06/do-schools-create-learning-disabilities/#comment-48076</link>
		<dc:creator>CharterMom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 16:56:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=9978#comment-48076</guid>
		<description>Hmmmm -- to Lightly Seasoned&#039;s point about his/her child learning to read in 3rd grade with a curriculum change to whole language.  I wonder if it was the curriculum or just the age when the &quot;lightbulb went on&quot;.  I once remember reading some research that said that there were brain connections that needed to be formed for reading and that for some kids that didn&#039;t happen until they were as old as 8 or 9 (ie third grade).  So it still could have been developmental rather than curriculum.

That being said -- I personally don&#039;t have any problem with remediation trying a new approach if the one being used isn&#039;t working.  That just makes sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmmm &#8212; to Lightly Seasoned&#8217;s point about his/her child learning to read in 3rd grade with a curriculum change to whole language.  I wonder if it was the curriculum or just the age when the &#8220;lightbulb went on&#8221;.  I once remember reading some research that said that there were brain connections that needed to be formed for reading and that for some kids that didn&#8217;t happen until they were as old as 8 or 9 (ie third grade).  So it still could have been developmental rather than curriculum.</p>
<p>That being said &#8212; I personally don&#8217;t have any problem with remediation trying a new approach if the one being used isn&#8217;t working.  That just makes sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Margo/Mom</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/06/do-schools-create-learning-disabilities/#comment-48075</link>
		<dc:creator>Margo/Mom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:59:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I recall a bit on NPR years ago talking to someone who was suggesting that the best methodology for learning to read depends upon right vs left brain dominance. While we always have kids who will get what they need regardless of the teaching method, we also have kids who really need either to construct meaning from putting together the individual pieces to see the whole OR from seeing the whole in order to be able to understand the pieces.

As we seesaw back and forth, all we are doing is redefining which group of kids needs remediation. Don&#039;t know what the research says, but it has always made sense to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recall a bit on NPR years ago talking to someone who was suggesting that the best methodology for learning to read depends upon right vs left brain dominance. While we always have kids who will get what they need regardless of the teaching method, we also have kids who really need either to construct meaning from putting together the individual pieces to see the whole OR from seeing the whole in order to be able to understand the pieces.</p>
<p>As we seesaw back and forth, all we are doing is redefining which group of kids needs remediation. Don&#8217;t know what the research says, but it has always made sense to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Lightly Seasoned</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/06/do-schools-create-learning-disabilities/#comment-48074</link>
		<dc:creator>Lightly Seasoned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 02:23:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>FWIW, my own child, who is (was) language impaired, spent years not learning to read with a standard phonics curriclum.  As soon as she switched to whole language instruction in 3rd grade, she leaped from being a non-reader (not even basals) to a 6th grade level in one year.  So yes, instruction can be a big factor, but not always in politically expedient ways.  I&#039;m not saying phonics or whole language is better than the other, but I think each has its place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FWIW, my own child, who is (was) language impaired, spent years not learning to read with a standard phonics curriclum.  As soon as she switched to whole language instruction in 3rd grade, she leaped from being a non-reader (not even basals) to a 6th grade level in one year.  So yes, instruction can be a big factor, but not always in politically expedient ways.  I&#8217;m not saying phonics or whole language is better than the other, but I think each has its place.</p>
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		<title>By: CharterMom</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/06/do-schools-create-learning-disabilities/#comment-48073</link>
		<dc:creator>CharterMom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 16:01:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=9978#comment-48073</guid>
		<description>Bill Leonard -- you said &quot;Charter Mom, if your step-daughter was taught reading via the whole language fraud, isn’t it possible that she simply didn’t learn to read, not that she couldn’t, or may have had problems doing so?&quot;

That is a good question -- I do think that the whole language approach greatly contributed to her issues through the years.  That was one of the reasons I researched reading curriculums before sending my sons to school and was so determined not to send them to a school that used whole language.  However given the pattern of LD across my husband&#039;s side of the family (including most likely my husband) -- different generations, different school systems, different genders -- I think a fairly good case for there also being a genetic component can be made.

(By the way my step-daughter did graduate from college, has been successful at her job and even reads for enjoyment now.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill Leonard &#8212; you said &#8220;Charter Mom, if your step-daughter was taught reading via the whole language fraud, isn’t it possible that she simply didn’t learn to read, not that she couldn’t, or may have had problems doing so?&#8221;</p>
<p>That is a good question &#8212; I do think that the whole language approach greatly contributed to her issues through the years.  That was one of the reasons I researched reading curriculums before sending my sons to school and was so determined not to send them to a school that used whole language.  However given the pattern of LD across my husband&#8217;s side of the family (including most likely my husband) &#8212; different generations, different school systems, different genders &#8212; I think a fairly good case for there also being a genetic component can be made.</p>
<p>(By the way my step-daughter did graduate from college, has been successful at her job and even reads for enjoyment now.)</p>
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		<title>By: Mom of Three</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/06/do-schools-create-learning-disabilities/#comment-48072</link>
		<dc:creator>Mom of Three</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:35:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>That is the correct book.

Most teachers say they were never taught the alphabetic code in ed school and all their prof development courses push whole language or its rhetorical successor, &quot;balanced literacy&quot;. MacGuinness&#039; book explains  why direct instruction of the phonetics works so well. She does a wonderful job of explaining all the different ways to use letters to represent the same sounds (quire vs choir) and how confusing it is for kids without instruction.

Her statement that &quot;letters don&#039;t have sounds, sounds have letters&quot; is a pithy way to explain the true logic of the code.

A teacher who has read that book will always recognize the statement that &quot;we don&#039;t know what works best in teaching reading&quot; is wrong and he or she will know why it is wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is the correct book.</p>
<p>Most teachers say they were never taught the alphabetic code in ed school and all their prof development courses push whole language or its rhetorical successor, &#8220;balanced literacy&#8221;. MacGuinness&#8217; book explains  why direct instruction of the phonetics works so well. She does a wonderful job of explaining all the different ways to use letters to represent the same sounds (quire vs choir) and how confusing it is for kids without instruction.</p>
<p>Her statement that &#8220;letters don&#8217;t have sounds, sounds have letters&#8221; is a pithy way to explain the true logic of the code.</p>
<p>A teacher who has read that book will always recognize the statement that &#8220;we don&#8217;t know what works best in teaching reading&#8221; is wrong and he or she will know why it is wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Bart</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/06/do-schools-create-learning-disabilities/#comment-48071</link>
		<dc:creator>Bart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 04:54:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=9978#comment-48071</guid>
		<description>William Blake said it a long time ago: &lt;a href=&#039;http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/blake/schoolboy.html&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Schoolboy&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>William Blake said it a long time ago: <a href='http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/blake/schoolboy.html' rel="nofollow">The Schoolboy</a></p>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/06/do-schools-create-learning-disabilities/#comment-48070</link>
		<dc:creator>anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 03:02:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=9978#comment-48070</guid>
		<description>Margo/Mom said, &quot;There are in fact a number of possible indicators, including descrepancy between cognitive ability and achievement (which has sometimes been used to EXCLUDE kids from identification, if their cognitive ability was deemed to be low).&quot;

You are both right and wrong. Discrepancy has been used to exclude kids from identification as having a reading disability. However, discrepancy between cognitive ability and achievement is an indicator of nothing at all. Since the late 1980s, research has shown consistently that: a) IQ is not a strong predictor of reading skills; b) there are no reading-related cognitive deficits between students with and without discrepancies; and c) students with discrepancies do not respond to treatment better (or faster) than students without discrepancies. These are robust findings that have appeared in the literature since the late 1980s and been replicated time and again over many years. Because of its continued use of discrepancy, the LD field has been called a pseudoscience by Stanovich (see 2005 paper in LD Quarterly) and others who have investigated this issue since 1990. (See also the reviews by Steubing, et al., 2002 in the American Educational Research Journal; F. Vellutino, et al, 2004 in the J. of Child Psychology and Psychiatry; and Vellutino, Scanlon, and Lyon, 2000).

Of course, one problem with the use of IQ-achievement discrepancy is that its use results in the identification of students as disabled who achieve in the average range who are not disabled. The classic example is the student with an IQ of 125 and a reading score of 100. The student has a discrepancy but is not disabled.

Regarding diagnosis of reading disabilities, diagnosticians familiar with the reading literature understand that reading disabilities are the result of phonological processing deficits. Measures of phonological processing (word decoding, pseudoword decoding, phonemic awareness) are used to diagnose the reading problems, not IQ-achievement discrepancy. Again, these findings have been replicated and have been described in the literature (e.g., see Rayner, Foorman, Perfetti, Pesetsky, &amp; Seidenberg, 2001)

With regard to the assertion that LDs in reading are &quot;teacher disabilities,&quot; Velltino and his colleagues published a study in 1996 which showed that the majority of reading probelms in entry level students were caused by experiential and/or instructional deficits, and  when given appropriate intervention, 67.1% of the poor readers in the study performed as well in reading as the normal readers (Scanlon, D., and Vellutino, F., 1996). The results of other studies have yielded similar results.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Margo/Mom said, &#8220;There are in fact a number of possible indicators, including descrepancy between cognitive ability and achievement (which has sometimes been used to EXCLUDE kids from identification, if their cognitive ability was deemed to be low).&#8221;</p>
<p>You are both right and wrong. Discrepancy has been used to exclude kids from identification as having a reading disability. However, discrepancy between cognitive ability and achievement is an indicator of nothing at all. Since the late 1980s, research has shown consistently that: a) IQ is not a strong predictor of reading skills; b) there are no reading-related cognitive deficits between students with and without discrepancies; and c) students with discrepancies do not respond to treatment better (or faster) than students without discrepancies. These are robust findings that have appeared in the literature since the late 1980s and been replicated time and again over many years. Because of its continued use of discrepancy, the LD field has been called a pseudoscience by Stanovich (see 2005 paper in LD Quarterly) and others who have investigated this issue since 1990. (See also the reviews by Steubing, et al., 2002 in the American Educational Research Journal; F. Vellutino, et al, 2004 in the J. of Child Psychology and Psychiatry; and Vellutino, Scanlon, and Lyon, 2000).</p>
<p>Of course, one problem with the use of IQ-achievement discrepancy is that its use results in the identification of students as disabled who achieve in the average range who are not disabled. The classic example is the student with an IQ of 125 and a reading score of 100. The student has a discrepancy but is not disabled.</p>
<p>Regarding diagnosis of reading disabilities, diagnosticians familiar with the reading literature understand that reading disabilities are the result of phonological processing deficits. Measures of phonological processing (word decoding, pseudoword decoding, phonemic awareness) are used to diagnose the reading problems, not IQ-achievement discrepancy. Again, these findings have been replicated and have been described in the literature (e.g., see Rayner, Foorman, Perfetti, Pesetsky, &amp; Seidenberg, 2001)</p>
<p>With regard to the assertion that LDs in reading are &#8220;teacher disabilities,&#8221; Velltino and his colleagues published a study in 1996 which showed that the majority of reading probelms in entry level students were caused by experiential and/or instructional deficits, and  when given appropriate intervention, 67.1% of the poor readers in the study performed as well in reading as the normal readers (Scanlon, D., and Vellutino, F., 1996). The results of other studies have yielded similar results.</p>
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		<title>By: Redkudu</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/06/do-schools-create-learning-disabilities/#comment-48069</link>
		<dc:creator>Redkudu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Jun 2009 01:17:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=9978#comment-48069</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure MacGuinness&#039;s book (&quot;Why Our Children Can&#039;t Read&quot; is the one I assume you&#039;re speaking of) is one teachers of classrooms of students will be able to work with when simpler methods (based on direct instruction and solid phonics) may produce the same results.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure MacGuinness&#8217;s book (&#8220;Why Our Children Can&#8217;t Read&#8221; is the one I assume you&#8217;re speaking of) is one teachers of classrooms of students will be able to work with when simpler methods (based on direct instruction and solid phonics) may produce the same results.</p>
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		<title>By: Mom of Three</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/06/do-schools-create-learning-disabilities/#comment-48068</link>
		<dc:creator>Mom of Three</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:41:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=9978#comment-48068</guid>
		<description>Diane Macguinness has written a wonderful book on learning to read that sets out a clear case that there&#039;s a biological imperative behind learning to speak. Learning to read though is not something that is evolutionary.

Most kids need to be taught the rules of what the symbols probably represent. It wasn&#039;t intuitive throughout most of human history. Why should it have become accessible through exposure in the last few decades?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Diane Macguinness has written a wonderful book on learning to read that sets out a clear case that there&#8217;s a biological imperative behind learning to speak. Learning to read though is not something that is evolutionary.</p>
<p>Most kids need to be taught the rules of what the symbols probably represent. It wasn&#8217;t intuitive throughout most of human history. Why should it have become accessible through exposure in the last few decades?</p>
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