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	<title>Comments on: Better at 9 and 13 but not at 17</title>
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	<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/04/better-at-9-and-13-but-not-at-17/</link>
	<description>Free-linking and thinking on education by Joanne Jacobs</description>
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		<title>By: michael mazenko</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/04/better-at-9-and-13-but-not-at-17/comment-page-1/#comment-95114</link>
		<dc:creator>michael mazenko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Apr 2009 13:27:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=8748#comment-95114</guid>
		<description>Morgan,

Like Jay Mathews, I believe &quot;the best education for the best is the best education for all,&quot; though I also believe a one-size fits all system is problematic, and Charles Murray has a point when he argues, &quot;too many people are going to college&quot; and America has an unrealistic emphasis on bachelors degrees.  

In terms of open enrollment or vouchers or charters or choice, I support whatever works best to help all kids achieve their potential.  However, having been educated in and teaching at both public and private schools, as well as teaching abroad, I don&#039;t see any of those choices as a panacea, noting some parents use their &quot;choice&quot; poorly (meaning they simply enroll in a school close-by and it might be an ineffective charter that is closed two years later), and acknowledging that a private sector system which can avoid teaching whatever students it doesn&#039;t want isn&#039;t the answer to problems in an urban school system.  Your pejorative use of, and generalization, regarding &quot;government schools&quot; is the aspect of your position which render your argument irrational.  Clearly, as you inadvertently point out, it has less to do with who runs the school and more to do with socio-economic factors.

In terms of Morningside, if what they do leads to student achievement which translates all the way through higher education and success in the marketplace, then more power to them.  However, Sylvan Learning Center makes similar claims that may impact a score on state tests, but don&#039;t necessarily translate into any success beyond those tests.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Morgan,</p>
<p>Like Jay Mathews, I believe &#8220;the best education for the best is the best education for all,&#8221; though I also believe a one-size fits all system is problematic, and Charles Murray has a point when he argues, &#8220;too many people are going to college&#8221; and America has an unrealistic emphasis on bachelors degrees.  </p>
<p>In terms of open enrollment or vouchers or charters or choice, I support whatever works best to help all kids achieve their potential.  However, having been educated in and teaching at both public and private schools, as well as teaching abroad, I don&#8217;t see any of those choices as a panacea, noting some parents use their &#8220;choice&#8221; poorly (meaning they simply enroll in a school close-by and it might be an ineffective charter that is closed two years later), and acknowledging that a private sector system which can avoid teaching whatever students it doesn&#8217;t want isn&#8217;t the answer to problems in an urban school system.  Your pejorative use of, and generalization, regarding &#8220;government schools&#8221; is the aspect of your position which render your argument irrational.  Clearly, as you inadvertently point out, it has less to do with who runs the school and more to do with socio-economic factors.</p>
<p>In terms of Morningside, if what they do leads to student achievement which translates all the way through higher education and success in the marketplace, then more power to them.  However, Sylvan Learning Center makes similar claims that may impact a score on state tests, but don&#8217;t necessarily translate into any success beyond those tests.</p>
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		<title>By: Morgan Dubiel</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/04/better-at-9-and-13-but-not-at-17/comment-page-1/#comment-95096</link>
		<dc:creator>Morgan Dubiel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 22:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=8748#comment-95096</guid>
		<description>Michael,

I wasn&#039;t using hyperbole. Those City kids, not connected enough to get into magnet schools, not getting an education end up our poor and criminal element. Those schools matter less than the parents of those children attending the &quot;top schools&quot;. I suppose you favor vouchers because we cannot have both the best system and one that is insulated from market competition.

We see little innovation in government schools because there needn&#039;t be any. Their funding is captive and the majority of it doesn&#039;t even come from the parents of children who attend those schools. The school boards are ineffective and the system is utterly biased in favor of teachers, administrators and vendors.

Free the funding and the students, end the need for teaching certificates (doesn&#039;t it seem absurd that I cannot teach my trade even though I have almost 20 years in it without a teaching certificate?). The system is not complex, it is simplified. One size fits all doesn&#039;t work with socks, why would it work with human beings?

All the testing and white paper chatter is wasted energy. Prove we have the best system by letting it compete openly and without constraint in the free market. That was the original point of the article. Watch the wasted human potential come to fruition as children are allowed to learn in a customized fashion tailored to their individual needs. Of course, it would mean that the teachers, administrators and vendors would take the risk of losing profitable positions and contracts - but they&#039;re doing it for the children so they won&#039;t mind. If you&#039;re not willing to let go, then you&#039;re part of the problem.

Here&#039;s the info from Morningside&#039;s site: 

4 weeks of attendance guarantees 80% of a year of growth in the skill of greatest deficit or your money back!* 

*Proportional refunds based on less growth. All students must attend a testing date scheduled below to qualify. Ask for details.

http://www.morningsideacademy.org/programs/summerschool.php

Contact them directly. I am certain they must have a lot of data backing up their position to make an open market offer like that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p>I wasn&#8217;t using hyperbole. Those City kids, not connected enough to get into magnet schools, not getting an education end up our poor and criminal element. Those schools matter less than the parents of those children attending the &#8220;top schools&#8221;. I suppose you favor vouchers because we cannot have both the best system and one that is insulated from market competition.</p>
<p>We see little innovation in government schools because there needn&#8217;t be any. Their funding is captive and the majority of it doesn&#8217;t even come from the parents of children who attend those schools. The school boards are ineffective and the system is utterly biased in favor of teachers, administrators and vendors.</p>
<p>Free the funding and the students, end the need for teaching certificates (doesn&#8217;t it seem absurd that I cannot teach my trade even though I have almost 20 years in it without a teaching certificate?). The system is not complex, it is simplified. One size fits all doesn&#8217;t work with socks, why would it work with human beings?</p>
<p>All the testing and white paper chatter is wasted energy. Prove we have the best system by letting it compete openly and without constraint in the free market. That was the original point of the article. Watch the wasted human potential come to fruition as children are allowed to learn in a customized fashion tailored to their individual needs. Of course, it would mean that the teachers, administrators and vendors would take the risk of losing profitable positions and contracts &#8211; but they&#8217;re doing it for the children so they won&#8217;t mind. If you&#8217;re not willing to let go, then you&#8217;re part of the problem.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the info from Morningside&#8217;s site: </p>
<p>4 weeks of attendance guarantees 80% of a year of growth in the skill of greatest deficit or your money back!* </p>
<p>*Proportional refunds based on less growth. All students must attend a testing date scheduled below to qualify. Ask for details.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.morningsideacademy.org/programs/summerschool.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.morningsideacademy.org/programs/summerschool.php</a></p>
<p>Contact them directly. I am certain they must have a lot of data backing up their position to make an open market offer like that.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Aubrey</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/04/better-at-9-and-13-but-not-at-17/comment-page-1/#comment-95091</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Aubrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 19:11:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=8748#comment-95091</guid>
		<description>Lowest scoring kids making the biggest improvements.
NCLB, anybody?
If it weren&#039;t Bush&#039;s idea, it would probably be acknowledged.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lowest scoring kids making the biggest improvements.<br />
NCLB, anybody?<br />
If it weren&#8217;t Bush&#8217;s idea, it would probably be acknowledged.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Sweeny</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/04/better-at-9-and-13-but-not-at-17/comment-page-1/#comment-95089</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Sweeny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 18:17:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=8748#comment-95089</guid>
		<description>pm,

Coulson&#039;s figures are already inflation-adjusted.  I&#039;m not sure if the price increase is even bigger in medicine.  At least some of the increase in medical costs comes from increasing quality: better ways of treating things or treatments that didn&#039;t exist forty years ago (how much more would you be willing to pay to be treated by a modern doctor rather than one forty years ago?).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>pm,</p>
<p>Coulson&#8217;s figures are already inflation-adjusted.  I&#8217;m not sure if the price increase is even bigger in medicine.  At least some of the increase in medical costs comes from increasing quality: better ways of treating things or treatments that didn&#8217;t exist forty years ago (how much more would you be willing to pay to be treated by a modern doctor rather than one forty years ago?).</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/04/better-at-9-and-13-but-not-at-17/comment-page-1/#comment-95066</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 09:44:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=8748#comment-95066</guid>
		<description>Actually, the US educational system is probably the only one in the modern world where students actually do worse the longer they are in it.  I graduated in 1981, 5 months after Reagan assumed office, and before the US Dept. of Education (started by that numbnuts Jimmy Carter) could brainwash me with their babbling bulls**t.

A student who doesn&#039;t have a solid mastery of addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, percentages, and fractions is going to have a miserable time in Algebra I (or any other advanced math or science course).  Wanna take chemistry, you better know how to do those six things I just mentioned, want to succeed in algebra, better know those six things.

Students have such inflated egos through self-esteem nonsense that they get stomped on when they actually find out how bad their reading/writing/math skills actually are (In my day, we didn&#039;t have minimum fail grades of 50% for turning in no work), you didn&#039;t turn in the work, you got a big fat zero for that assignment, didn&#039;t show up for a test or quiz without a doctor&#039;s note, you got a zero.

The penalty for failure in my day was either a lower grade in a course or outright failure.  If you failed a course required for graduation, you either repeated it next year, or you were in summer school making it up (with you or your parents paying for it) while all of your friends were out enjoying summer vacation.

Pfft.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, the US educational system is probably the only one in the modern world where students actually do worse the longer they are in it.  I graduated in 1981, 5 months after Reagan assumed office, and before the US Dept. of Education (started by that numbnuts Jimmy Carter) could brainwash me with their babbling bulls**t.</p>
<p>A student who doesn&#8217;t have a solid mastery of addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, percentages, and fractions is going to have a miserable time in Algebra I (or any other advanced math or science course).  Wanna take chemistry, you better know how to do those six things I just mentioned, want to succeed in algebra, better know those six things.</p>
<p>Students have such inflated egos through self-esteem nonsense that they get stomped on when they actually find out how bad their reading/writing/math skills actually are (In my day, we didn&#8217;t have minimum fail grades of 50% for turning in no work), you didn&#8217;t turn in the work, you got a big fat zero for that assignment, didn&#8217;t show up for a test or quiz without a doctor&#8217;s note, you got a zero.</p>
<p>The penalty for failure in my day was either a lower grade in a course or outright failure.  If you failed a course required for graduation, you either repeated it next year, or you were in summer school making it up (with you or your parents paying for it) while all of your friends were out enjoying summer vacation.</p>
<p>Pfft.</p>
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		<title>By: Tracy W</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/04/better-at-9-and-13-but-not-at-17/comment-page-1/#comment-95064</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 08:41:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=8748#comment-95064</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; Notably, the comparison is standardized test performance that has no direct correlation to performance in the marketplace.&lt;/i&gt;

Actually it does. See for example this bit of economic research: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/economics/credit/research/papers/CP0804.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;International School Test Sources and Economic Growth&lt;/a&gt; by Appleton, Atherton and Bleaney. 
Economists are now debating the size of the correlation. The abstract of the paper above is:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
We expand Hanushek and Kimko’s (2000) analysis of the relationship between schooling quality, as measured by scores in international tests, and growth. We take account of another fifteen years of growth and approximately twice as many test score results. We treat the data
first as a panel, relating growth only to test scores at earlier dates, and then as a cross-section. In both cases we find the effect of schooling quality on growth to be statistically significant
but substantially smaller than that reported by Hanushek and Kimko (2000) and Hanushek and Woessmann (2007).&lt;/blockquote&gt;
The paper I linked includes a summary of past research into this. 
Of course correlation is not causation, there are many other factors that can cause a country to be rich even if its education system is shoddy, and on the other hand, to be poor even if it&#039;s got a great education system. To quote P.J. O&#039;Rourke:
&quot;No part of the earth … is dumber than Beverly Hills , and the residents are wading in gravy. In Russia, meanwhile, where chess is a spectator sport, they&#039;re boiling stones for soup.&quot;
But there is a correlation between international standardised test scores and economic growth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> Notably, the comparison is standardized test performance that has no direct correlation to performance in the marketplace.</i></p>
<p>Actually it does. See for example this bit of economic research: <a href="http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/economics/credit/research/papers/CP0804.pdf" rel="nofollow">International School Test Sources and Economic Growth</a> by Appleton, Atherton and Bleaney.<br />
Economists are now debating the size of the correlation. The abstract of the paper above is:</p>
<blockquote><p>
We expand Hanushek and Kimko’s (2000) analysis of the relationship between schooling quality, as measured by scores in international tests, and growth. We take account of another fifteen years of growth and approximately twice as many test score results. We treat the data<br />
first as a panel, relating growth only to test scores at earlier dates, and then as a cross-section. In both cases we find the effect of schooling quality on growth to be statistically significant<br />
but substantially smaller than that reported by Hanushek and Kimko (2000) and Hanushek and Woessmann (2007).</p></blockquote>
<p>The paper I linked includes a summary of past research into this.<br />
Of course correlation is not causation, there are many other factors that can cause a country to be rich even if its education system is shoddy, and on the other hand, to be poor even if it&#8217;s got a great education system. To quote P.J. O&#8217;Rourke:<br />
&#8220;No part of the earth … is dumber than Beverly Hills , and the residents are wading in gravy. In Russia, meanwhile, where chess is a spectator sport, they&#8217;re boiling stones for soup.&#8221;<br />
But there is a correlation between international standardised test scores and economic growth.</p>
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		<title>By: lightly seasoned</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/04/better-at-9-and-13-but-not-at-17/comment-page-1/#comment-95060</link>
		<dc:creator>lightly seasoned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 02:55:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=8748#comment-95060</guid>
		<description>Right.

1971 pre-dates the IDEA.  I can&#039;t tell you how many million $ kids come through my classroom.  Children with severe learning and physical disabilities don&#039;t test well.

1971 pre-dates IT departments.

1971 pre-dates maternity leaves for teachers and other benefits.

In most European nations, only the top 1/3rd of the students make it to 12th or 13th grade.  

I suspect the results vary wildly depending on your agenda and where you look.  My students not only max out of Calc, but many are taking higher maths at the local ivy university.  Our AP scores average well over a 4 in most subject areas (which is probably as objective a measure as you can find).  I have or have had students attend most of the highly selective schools in the country.  We&#039;re just a public school district.  But, down the road, the urban school district is unaccredited and failing miserably.  Our state graduation rate is about 50% -- we&#039;re largely extremely rural -- but my building&#039;s rate was 99% last year.

We can certainly do much better -- I certainly have a ways to go before I become the truly excellent teacher I&#039;d like to be.  But schools have experienced incredibly expensive new mandates in the last 37 years that don&#039;t seem to be accounted for here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right.</p>
<p>1971 pre-dates the IDEA.  I can&#8217;t tell you how many million $ kids come through my classroom.  Children with severe learning and physical disabilities don&#8217;t test well.</p>
<p>1971 pre-dates IT departments.</p>
<p>1971 pre-dates maternity leaves for teachers and other benefits.</p>
<p>In most European nations, only the top 1/3rd of the students make it to 12th or 13th grade.  </p>
<p>I suspect the results vary wildly depending on your agenda and where you look.  My students not only max out of Calc, but many are taking higher maths at the local ivy university.  Our AP scores average well over a 4 in most subject areas (which is probably as objective a measure as you can find).  I have or have had students attend most of the highly selective schools in the country.  We&#8217;re just a public school district.  But, down the road, the urban school district is unaccredited and failing miserably.  Our state graduation rate is about 50% &#8212; we&#8217;re largely extremely rural &#8212; but my building&#8217;s rate was 99% last year.</p>
<p>We can certainly do much better &#8212; I certainly have a ways to go before I become the truly excellent teacher I&#8217;d like to be.  But schools have experienced incredibly expensive new mandates in the last 37 years that don&#8217;t seem to be accounted for here.</p>
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		<title>By: michael mazenko</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/04/better-at-9-and-13-but-not-at-17/comment-page-1/#comment-95058</link>
		<dc:creator>michael mazenko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 02:32:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=8748#comment-95058</guid>
		<description>Morgan,

Criminal?  I guess the effective use of hyperbole is not lost on you.  Nor is the use of gross generalizations used to criticize an incredibly complex system.  Using the term &quot;government schools&quot; to criticize the troubles of CPS in Chicago ignores two-thirds of the issue.  New Trier, Stevenson, Highland Park are &quot;government schools&quot; just up the road, and they are incredibly successful producing results to rival any school nationwide, or even worldwide.  Having lived and taught in the city of Chicago, as well as having lived and taught abroad in Taiwan, I&#039;d argue that parents couldn&#039;t hope for a better environment than these schools.  These are &quot;government schools,&quot; so clearly that moniker is not the key to the problem.

That is some interesting data about Morningside, but I&#039;d like to see some real data on those results.  Morningside may be a great place, though as a parent I think I&#039;d put my faith in the Bellevue school district and Bellevue International high school.  So would Bill Gates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Morgan,</p>
<p>Criminal?  I guess the effective use of hyperbole is not lost on you.  Nor is the use of gross generalizations used to criticize an incredibly complex system.  Using the term &#8220;government schools&#8221; to criticize the troubles of CPS in Chicago ignores two-thirds of the issue.  New Trier, Stevenson, Highland Park are &#8220;government schools&#8221; just up the road, and they are incredibly successful producing results to rival any school nationwide, or even worldwide.  Having lived and taught in the city of Chicago, as well as having lived and taught abroad in Taiwan, I&#8217;d argue that parents couldn&#8217;t hope for a better environment than these schools.  These are &#8220;government schools,&#8221; so clearly that moniker is not the key to the problem.</p>
<p>That is some interesting data about Morningside, but I&#8217;d like to see some real data on those results.  Morningside may be a great place, though as a parent I think I&#8217;d put my faith in the Bellevue school district and Bellevue International high school.  So would Bill Gates.</p>
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		<title>By: dlurie</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/04/better-at-9-and-13-but-not-at-17/comment-page-1/#comment-95056</link>
		<dc:creator>dlurie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 02:27:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=8748#comment-95056</guid>
		<description>Has anyone pointed out the repeated issue with using the data from the end of high school NAEP?  It&#039;s a zero stakes test given to a random sample of students who are pulled out of their classes sometime near the end of their senior year and asked to take a test that has absolutely no meaning to them?

As this article puts forth:
http://www.slate.com/id/2124163/

&quot;In 2002 nearly half of the 17-year-olds tapped to take the national NAEP exam didn&#039;t bother to show up. Students who did show up left more essay questions than multiple-choice questions blank, an indication that they weren&#039;t going to be bothered to venture an answer if it required effort.&quot;

I&#039;m not saying things are better or worse, but shouldn&#039;t we make sure we have an understanding of what&#039;s happening with the tool used to measure our progress before we put such total stock in it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has anyone pointed out the repeated issue with using the data from the end of high school NAEP?  It&#8217;s a zero stakes test given to a random sample of students who are pulled out of their classes sometime near the end of their senior year and asked to take a test that has absolutely no meaning to them?</p>
<p>As this article puts forth:<br />
<a href="http://www.slate.com/id/2124163/" rel="nofollow">http://www.slate.com/id/2124163/</a></p>
<p>&#8220;In 2002 nearly half of the 17-year-olds tapped to take the national NAEP exam didn&#8217;t bother to show up. Students who did show up left more essay questions than multiple-choice questions blank, an indication that they weren&#8217;t going to be bothered to venture an answer if it required effort.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying things are better or worse, but shouldn&#8217;t we make sure we have an understanding of what&#8217;s happening with the tool used to measure our progress before we put such total stock in it?</p>
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		<title>By: McSwain</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/04/better-at-9-and-13-but-not-at-17/comment-page-1/#comment-95055</link>
		<dc:creator>McSwain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 01:57:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=8748#comment-95055</guid>
		<description>Wow.  A lot of complicated comments.  Here&#039;s the simplified version of what I think is up:

I&#039;m in my mid-40&#039;s.  I received an excellent public school education, which included courses such as calculus and AP literature/writing in high school. I was well-prepared to attend an excellent 4-year university, where I kept up in graduate-level classes as a sophomore. I teach 4th grade now.

My 4th graders are expected to grasp concepts in math, language arts, and science that I wasn&#039;t exposed to until high school. We pile on homework starting in kindergarten.  I saw homework for the first time in 7th grade.  We are pushing the average student too hard, too fast, and studies (like this one) show that the learning doesn&#039;t hold.

We&#039;re burning our kids out.  By the time they reach middle school, they&#039;re done.  Oh, and they&#039;ve also had no time to PLAY, which teaches them problem solving skills.  Because they&#039;ve been too busy doing homework.  We need to slow down elementary school and step it up in middle and high school.

Simple. At least I wish it was.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow.  A lot of complicated comments.  Here&#8217;s the simplified version of what I think is up:</p>
<p>I&#8217;m in my mid-40&#8217;s.  I received an excellent public school education, which included courses such as calculus and AP literature/writing in high school. I was well-prepared to attend an excellent 4-year university, where I kept up in graduate-level classes as a sophomore. I teach 4th grade now.</p>
<p>My 4th graders are expected to grasp concepts in math, language arts, and science that I wasn&#8217;t exposed to until high school. We pile on homework starting in kindergarten.  I saw homework for the first time in 7th grade.  We are pushing the average student too hard, too fast, and studies (like this one) show that the learning doesn&#8217;t hold.</p>
<p>We&#8217;re burning our kids out.  By the time they reach middle school, they&#8217;re done.  Oh, and they&#8217;ve also had no time to PLAY, which teaches them problem solving skills.  Because they&#8217;ve been too busy doing homework.  We need to slow down elementary school and step it up in middle and high school.</p>
<p>Simple. At least I wish it was.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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