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	<title>Comments on: Flunking science</title>
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	<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/03/flunking-science/</link>
	<description>Thinking and Linking by Joanne Jacobs</description>
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		<title>By: markm</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/03/flunking-science/#comment-44879</link>
		<dc:creator>markm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Mar 2009 13:57:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=8088#comment-44879</guid>
		<description>Crimson: In addition, no form of Creationism I&#039;ve ever heard of teaches that cavemen coexisted with dinosaurs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Crimson: In addition, no form of Creationism I&#8217;ve ever heard of teaches that cavemen coexisted with dinosaurs.</p>
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		<title>By: Crimson Wife</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/03/flunking-science/#comment-44878</link>
		<dc:creator>Crimson Wife</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Mar 2009 20:00:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=8088#comment-44878</guid>
		<description>That the Holocaust happened is a fact, because it was observed. There&#039;s a member of my mom&#039;s church who is a survivor of Auschwitz who can testify to that effect, as can many others. We don&#039;t have to rely on indirect evidence like paleontological records and DNA mutations. The interpretation of those can be disputed; albeit in the case of &quot;Young Earth&quot; Creationism, they&#039;re often disputed through the invocation of supernatural events like Noah&#039;s flood.

Students cannot be required to hold any particular belief about the age of the Earth and the origins of species. They can, however, be required to know what the overwhelming majority of scientists believe about those two things. They should understand the theory of evolution but whether or not to personally accept it is their own business.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That the Holocaust happened is a fact, because it was observed. There&#8217;s a member of my mom&#8217;s church who is a survivor of Auschwitz who can testify to that effect, as can many others. We don&#8217;t have to rely on indirect evidence like paleontological records and DNA mutations. The interpretation of those can be disputed; albeit in the case of &#8220;Young Earth&#8221; Creationism, they&#8217;re often disputed through the invocation of supernatural events like Noah&#8217;s flood.</p>
<p>Students cannot be required to hold any particular belief about the age of the Earth and the origins of species. They can, however, be required to know what the overwhelming majority of scientists believe about those two things. They should understand the theory of evolution but whether or not to personally accept it is their own business.</p>
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		<title>By: Donalbain</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/03/flunking-science/#comment-44877</link>
		<dc:creator>Donalbain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Mar 2009 10:16:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=8088#comment-44877</guid>
		<description>So, you agree that such a student would flunk and the excuse of &quot;but it&#039;s his religious belief&quot; would have no traction whatsoever. Thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, you agree that such a student would flunk and the excuse of &#8220;but it&#8217;s his religious belief&#8221; would have no traction whatsoever. Thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Sundseth</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/03/flunking-science/#comment-44876</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Sundseth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Mar 2009 03:49:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=8088#comment-44876</guid>
		<description>&quot;...how would you grade a student who said that there was no Holocaust and that you can only say there was one using a particular philosophical outlook.&quot;

I refer you to a previous comment of mine in this thread:

&quot;That said, when you take a class in history, one of the unstated assumptions is that you will buy into (or at least act as if you will buy into) the idea that the historical record as we understand it has some understandable and discoverable relationship to the actual history.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8230;how would you grade a student who said that there was no Holocaust and that you can only say there was one using a particular philosophical outlook.&#8221;</p>
<p>I refer you to a previous comment of mine in this thread:</p>
<p>&#8220;That said, when you take a class in history, one of the unstated assumptions is that you will buy into (or at least act as if you will buy into) the idea that the historical record as we understand it has some understandable and discoverable relationship to the actual history.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Unfortunately</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/03/flunking-science/#comment-44875</link>
		<dc:creator>Unfortunately</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Mar 2009 22:56:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=8088#comment-44875</guid>
		<description>Wow this is a fun topic!

A fair number of my middle school students can&#039;t tell time or multiple single digit numbers.

Science?  Hahaha!  I try to teach it, but...yeah.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow this is a fun topic!</p>
<p>A fair number of my middle school students can&#8217;t tell time or multiple single digit numbers.</p>
<p>Science?  Hahaha!  I try to teach it, but&#8230;yeah.</p>
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		<title>By: Donalbain</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/03/flunking-science/#comment-44874</link>
		<dc:creator>Donalbain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Mar 2009 21:36:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=8088#comment-44874</guid>
		<description>OK.. so how would you grade a student who said that there was no Holocaust and that you can only say there was one using a particular philosophical outlook.
I am pretty sure that you would flunk such a student if they were sitting a 20th Century History exam.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK.. so how would you grade a student who said that there was no Holocaust and that you can only say there was one using a particular philosophical outlook.<br />
I am pretty sure that you would flunk such a student if they were sitting a 20th Century History exam.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Sundseth</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/03/flunking-science/#comment-44873</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Sundseth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Mar 2009 19:03:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=8088#comment-44873</guid>
		<description>&quot;We CAN however say that humans evolved well after dinosaurs.&quot;

We can say anything we like, as can anybody else.

Being a bit more cooperative with what I understand you to mean, we can say that the available scientific evidence strongly supports the evolution of humans after dinosaurs (and most other sauropods) were no longer about.  We can further say that there is no credible scientific evidence to contradict this theory. (I have said that or similar things at tedious length to real, live young-Earthers.)

All of those statements only work within the framework of the scientific method, however.  It happens that I find that framework quite useful, and haven&#039;t found any evidence that would cause me to discard it (a recursive scientific method, I suppose).  But that&#039;s (at least largely) because I think that Occam&#039;s/Ockham&#039;s razor is a useful and intellectually satisfying philosophical tool.

Discard that tool (which is not, and is not intended to be, falsifiable) and you are left with a more difficult philosophical dilemma.  Many people do not believe (a judgment based on my observation of their actions) that truths (or &quot;truths&quot; if you prefer) revealed in sacred books need to be falsifiable to be credible or important.  And given arbitrarily complex starting conditions, it is impossible to prove that the universe existed in the instant before you read this, much like it is impossible to prove anything about the existence of anything outside the memory of living beings or anything that has yet to happen.

That said, I&#039;m willing to bet quite large sums of money that the sun will rise tomorrow even though I won&#039;t be able to prove it will until it has, because I assign a probability to that event high enough to be functionally indistinguishable from 1.

As noted, I find the sort of arbitrary complexity required by young-Earth &quot;theories&quot; both inelegant and not useful, but that doesn&#039;t make my preferred philosophy true, just often predictive and normally quite satisfying to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;We CAN however say that humans evolved well after dinosaurs.&#8221;</p>
<p>We can say anything we like, as can anybody else.</p>
<p>Being a bit more cooperative with what I understand you to mean, we can say that the available scientific evidence strongly supports the evolution of humans after dinosaurs (and most other sauropods) were no longer about.  We can further say that there is no credible scientific evidence to contradict this theory. (I have said that or similar things at tedious length to real, live young-Earthers.)</p>
<p>All of those statements only work within the framework of the scientific method, however.  It happens that I find that framework quite useful, and haven&#8217;t found any evidence that would cause me to discard it (a recursive scientific method, I suppose).  But that&#8217;s (at least largely) because I think that Occam&#8217;s/Ockham&#8217;s razor is a useful and intellectually satisfying philosophical tool.</p>
<p>Discard that tool (which is not, and is not intended to be, falsifiable) and you are left with a more difficult philosophical dilemma.  Many people do not believe (a judgment based on my observation of their actions) that truths (or &#8220;truths&#8221; if you prefer) revealed in sacred books need to be falsifiable to be credible or important.  And given arbitrarily complex starting conditions, it is impossible to prove that the universe existed in the instant before you read this, much like it is impossible to prove anything about the existence of anything outside the memory of living beings or anything that has yet to happen.</p>
<p>That said, I&#8217;m willing to bet quite large sums of money that the sun will rise tomorrow even though I won&#8217;t be able to prove it will until it has, because I assign a probability to that event high enough to be functionally indistinguishable from 1.</p>
<p>As noted, I find the sort of arbitrary complexity required by young-Earth &#8220;theories&#8221; both inelegant and not useful, but that doesn&#8217;t make my preferred philosophy true, just often predictive and normally quite satisfying to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Donalbain</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/03/flunking-science/#comment-44872</link>
		<dc:creator>Donalbain</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Mar 2009 16:46:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=8088#comment-44872</guid>
		<description>We CAN however say that humans evolved well after dinosaurs. That is just a fact. Just as it is a fact that things are made of atoms and that electricity is the movement of electrons. Sorry, but excusing idiocy on the grounds of religion is even more idiotic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We CAN however say that humans evolved well after dinosaurs. That is just a fact. Just as it is a fact that things are made of atoms and that electricity is the movement of electrons. Sorry, but excusing idiocy on the grounds of religion is even more idiotic.</p>
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		<title>By: Crimson Wife</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/03/flunking-science/#comment-44871</link>
		<dc:creator>Crimson Wife</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Mar 2009 16:04:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=8088#comment-44871</guid>
		<description>Donalbain- as it so happens, I studied science at Stanford. Scientists cannot say that something is 100% certain unless it has been observed. The evolution of peppered moths in England from light to dark and now back to light again is a fact. Macroevolution of one species into another over millions of years is not a fact but a theory. A very well-supported theory, as you noted. But no human can say with 100% certainty that it is correct. The most we can say is that the best scientific evidence supports it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Donalbain- as it so happens, I studied science at Stanford. Scientists cannot say that something is 100% certain unless it has been observed. The evolution of peppered moths in England from light to dark and now back to light again is a fact. Macroevolution of one species into another over millions of years is not a fact but a theory. A very well-supported theory, as you noted. But no human can say with 100% certainty that it is correct. The most we can say is that the best scientific evidence supports it.</p>
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		<title>By: Doug Sundseth</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/03/flunking-science/#comment-44870</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug Sundseth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Mar 2009 15:41:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=8088#comment-44870</guid>
		<description>Sorry, but &quot;God created the world last Thursday, including all the evidence you use for its longer existence&quot; is simply not falsifiable.  That I find it unlikely (to say the least) doesn&#039;t change that.  That is precisely what is meant by, &quot;It&#039;s not even wrong.&quot;

That said, when you take a class in history, one of the unstated assumptions is that you will buy into (or at least act as if you will buy into) the idea that the historical record as we understand it has some understandable and discoverable relationship to the actual history.  The same would apply if you were to take a job as a company historian (or whatever).

If somebody random calls you up while you are making dinner and wants to take up your time with intrusive questions about history, however, there should be no assumption that you have the same worldview.

But, that said, I don&#039;t think that possibility has much to do with the issue here.  Absent more evidence, I assume that the results are mostly a result of sampling error, stupidity, and possibly a significant number of respondents choosing the most entertaining answer out of perversity.  (I include that last possibility because I find it personally attractive; if I didn&#039;t just routinely hang up on surveyors, I&#039;d probably do it myself.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, but &#8220;God created the world last Thursday, including all the evidence you use for its longer existence&#8221; is simply not falsifiable.  That I find it unlikely (to say the least) doesn&#8217;t change that.  That is precisely what is meant by, &#8220;It&#8217;s not even wrong.&#8221;</p>
<p>That said, when you take a class in history, one of the unstated assumptions is that you will buy into (or at least act as if you will buy into) the idea that the historical record as we understand it has some understandable and discoverable relationship to the actual history.  The same would apply if you were to take a job as a company historian (or whatever).</p>
<p>If somebody random calls you up while you are making dinner and wants to take up your time with intrusive questions about history, however, there should be no assumption that you have the same worldview.</p>
<p>But, that said, I don&#8217;t think that possibility has much to do with the issue here.  Absent more evidence, I assume that the results are mostly a result of sampling error, stupidity, and possibly a significant number of respondents choosing the most entertaining answer out of perversity.  (I include that last possibility because I find it personally attractive; if I didn&#8217;t just routinely hang up on surveyors, I&#8217;d probably do it myself.)</p>
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