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	<title>Comments on: Incomprehensible: Wisconsin history in Spanish</title>
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	<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/02/incomprehensible-wisconsin-history-in-spanish/</link>
	<description>Thinking and Linking by Joanne Jacobs</description>
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		<title>By: Andy Freeman</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/02/incomprehensible-wisconsin-history-in-spanish/#comment-43936</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Freeman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Feb 2009 16:22:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=7571#comment-43936</guid>
		<description>&gt; There seems to be a strong push in the direction of formless mush as superior to actually knowing stuff.

The basic idea is called Gresham&#039;s Law, and it isn&#039;t due to the guy who writes legal novels.  (Gresham didn&#039;t &quot;discover&quot; it, but does get credit for a particular way of phrasing it.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; There seems to be a strong push in the direction of formless mush as superior to actually knowing stuff.</p>
<p>The basic idea is called Gresham&#8217;s Law, and it isn&#8217;t due to the guy who writes legal novels.  (Gresham didn&#8217;t &#8220;discover&#8221; it, but does get credit for a particular way of phrasing it.)</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Aubrey</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/02/incomprehensible-wisconsin-history-in-spanish/#comment-43935</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Aubrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Feb 2009 20:34:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=7571#comment-43935</guid>
		<description>There seems to be a strong push in the direction of formless mush as superior to actually knowing stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There seems to be a strong push in the direction of formless mush as superior to actually knowing stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: Hunter McDaniel</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/02/incomprehensible-wisconsin-history-in-spanish/#comment-43934</link>
		<dc:creator>Hunter McDaniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Feb 2009 18:29:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=7571#comment-43934</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m one of those middle-class parents who put their kid in a 50% (Spanish) immersion program in early elementary school.  
But his program had the good sense to concentrate second-language instruction in concrete subjects like math and science, which have a strong &quot;look, see&quot; component at that age.  Starting with abstract subjects like social studies is insane, IMHO.

With continued non-immersion classes after fourth grade he now speaks Spanish fluently as an adult, with a slight Cuban accent (or so I am told).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m one of those middle-class parents who put their kid in a 50% (Spanish) immersion program in early elementary school.<br />
But his program had the good sense to concentrate second-language instruction in concrete subjects like math and science, which have a strong &#8220;look, see&#8221; component at that age.  Starting with abstract subjects like social studies is insane, IMHO.</p>
<p>With continued non-immersion classes after fourth grade he now speaks Spanish fluently as an adult, with a slight Cuban accent (or so I am told).</p>
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		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/02/incomprehensible-wisconsin-history-in-spanish/#comment-43933</link>
		<dc:creator>Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Feb 2009 04:33:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=7571#comment-43933</guid>
		<description>Margo

     As a legal immigrant , let me tell you something . If you want kids to learn a second and third language , don&#039;t shove it down their throats . And btw , social studies is not a place to do language immersion because language immersion implies that you interact with native born speakers of the language you want to learn constantly . That language immersion in Waunakee, Wisconsin is just an expensive way of telling the American people that many teachers , school officials , education experts and politicians have no business in educating American children .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Margo</p>
<p>     As a legal immigrant , let me tell you something . If you want kids to learn a second and third language , don&#8217;t shove it down their throats . And btw , social studies is not a place to do language immersion because language immersion implies that you interact with native born speakers of the language you want to learn constantly . That language immersion in Waunakee, Wisconsin is just an expensive way of telling the American people that many teachers , school officials , education experts and politicians have no business in educating American children .</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Aubrey</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/02/incomprehensible-wisconsin-history-in-spanish/#comment-43932</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Aubrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Feb 2009 01:24:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=7571#comment-43932</guid>
		<description>At our church youth group, our third-graders were rattling off the Preamble to each other. Pretty neat.  They&#039;re required to memorize it.
However, if they were to learn it in Spanish,they&#039;d be picking up words not often needed elsewhere and spending too much time learning it at all.  Bad for Spanish ed, bad for learning the subject.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At our church youth group, our third-graders were rattling off the Preamble to each other. Pretty neat.  They&#8217;re required to memorize it.<br />
However, if they were to learn it in Spanish,they&#8217;d be picking up words not often needed elsewhere and spending too much time learning it at all.  Bad for Spanish ed, bad for learning the subject.</p>
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		<title>By: Parent2</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/02/incomprehensible-wisconsin-history-in-spanish/#comment-43931</link>
		<dc:creator>Parent2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 22:10:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=7571#comment-43931</guid>
		<description>Immersion schools are very popular with the educated middle and upper-middle class.  Those parents will make certain that their children do not fall behind.  For many children of a certain class, school is not the only avenue to education.  The enrichment begins when the school day has finished.

You cannot assume that, because two total immersion model schools of choice in your area do well on state mandated test, presenting academic topics in foreign languages increases students&#039; performance.  For one thing, the parents who choose an immersion model are likely to be of a higher socioeconomic status, on average, than those parents who don&#039;t jump through the necessary hoops to get their children into the program.  Any difference in scores is much more likely to be due to the difference in family SES.

If your argument were true, then every ELL child in the country would be outperforming their English-speaking peers.  Yet, they aren&#039;t.

In addition, the Wisconsin program began with the first grade, and then added a grade level each year.  This is the first year they have required fourth grade social studies to be taught in Spanish.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Immersion schools are very popular with the educated middle and upper-middle class.  Those parents will make certain that their children do not fall behind.  For many children of a certain class, school is not the only avenue to education.  The enrichment begins when the school day has finished.</p>
<p>You cannot assume that, because two total immersion model schools of choice in your area do well on state mandated test, presenting academic topics in foreign languages increases students&#8217; performance.  For one thing, the parents who choose an immersion model are likely to be of a higher socioeconomic status, on average, than those parents who don&#8217;t jump through the necessary hoops to get their children into the program.  Any difference in scores is much more likely to be due to the difference in family SES.</p>
<p>If your argument were true, then every ELL child in the country would be outperforming their English-speaking peers.  Yet, they aren&#8217;t.</p>
<p>In addition, the Wisconsin program began with the first grade, and then added a grade level each year.  This is the first year they have required fourth grade social studies to be taught in Spanish.</p>
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		<title>By: Mia</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/02/incomprehensible-wisconsin-history-in-spanish/#comment-43930</link>
		<dc:creator>Mia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 21:46:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=7571#comment-43930</guid>
		<description>&quot;I would think that the ability to outscore your peers on a social studies test would be a reasonable indicator.&quot;

If you&#039;re talking about tests on the same material they were presented in their particular school, that would be a reasonable indicator.  If you&#039;re talking about the state-mandated multple-guess tests that may or may not contain the information studied by all students in every school in America, probably not.  You can&#039;t measure what a child really knows by these tests.  The tests are for the monetary benefit of the schools, not the educational benefit of the children.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I would think that the ability to outscore your peers on a social studies test would be a reasonable indicator.&#8221;</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re talking about tests on the same material they were presented in their particular school, that would be a reasonable indicator.  If you&#8217;re talking about the state-mandated multple-guess tests that may or may not contain the information studied by all students in every school in America, probably not.  You can&#8217;t measure what a child really knows by these tests.  The tests are for the monetary benefit of the schools, not the educational benefit of the children.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Aubrey</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/02/incomprehensible-wisconsin-history-in-spanish/#comment-43929</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Aubrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 21:33:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=7571#comment-43929</guid>
		<description>Margo.
You forget that there are other factors in doing well or poorly in school.
See McWhorter on his experience in Shaker Heights.  Also further studies in the differences in the results between ethnic groups there, or elsewhere, for that matter.
Superior schools are going to to well, if they have kids with supportive parents. Our AFS kids always did very well, although all their classes were in a language foreign to them.  That&#039;s not because they were learning in a second language, but because they were really bright kids.  I know. I helped ours with their homework. It was tough, but they worked hard and were bright. But it was easier for our own kids who didn&#039;t have a language barrier.

Mixing language is not, then, shown to make a difference.

Vocab in initial language learning is for commonly-used words.  Subject learning provides specialized vocabulary not useful elsewhere in place of more commonly used words.  I learned a whole bunch of Vietnamese, for example, which would have been useless for shopping or construction or getting from the airport by public transportation or understanding Buddhism, or local art, or farming....  You see my point.
I&#039;ll make another.  Social studies, if they&#039;re lucky, might use the term &quot;loess&quot;.  Or &quot;extinct&quot;.  Or &quot;slash&amp;burn&quot;.  Or &quot;prussian&quot; (von Steuben).  Or &quot;musket&quot;.  Or &quot;epidemic&quot;.
Nice to know, but you wouldn&#039;t want to get in the way of knowing how to ask where the bathroom is, is this water potable, what is the word for ticket, how to ask for directions, how to order in a restaurant.  And you can&#039;t do both, unless your social studies lesson for the day is how to ask for a bus ticket to Austin in Spanish to illustrate how hard it is to...somethingsomething politically correct.  Which is not social studies, especially the social studies which is impostering as history.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Margo.<br />
You forget that there are other factors in doing well or poorly in school.<br />
See McWhorter on his experience in Shaker Heights.  Also further studies in the differences in the results between ethnic groups there, or elsewhere, for that matter.<br />
Superior schools are going to to well, if they have kids with supportive parents. Our AFS kids always did very well, although all their classes were in a language foreign to them.  That&#8217;s not because they were learning in a second language, but because they were really bright kids.  I know. I helped ours with their homework. It was tough, but they worked hard and were bright. But it was easier for our own kids who didn&#8217;t have a language barrier.</p>
<p>Mixing language is not, then, shown to make a difference.</p>
<p>Vocab in initial language learning is for commonly-used words.  Subject learning provides specialized vocabulary not useful elsewhere in place of more commonly used words.  I learned a whole bunch of Vietnamese, for example, which would have been useless for shopping or construction or getting from the airport by public transportation or understanding Buddhism, or local art, or farming&#8230;.  You see my point.<br />
I&#8217;ll make another.  Social studies, if they&#8217;re lucky, might use the term &#8220;loess&#8221;.  Or &#8220;extinct&#8221;.  Or &#8220;slash&amp;burn&#8221;.  Or &#8220;prussian&#8221; (von Steuben).  Or &#8220;musket&#8221;.  Or &#8220;epidemic&#8221;.<br />
Nice to know, but you wouldn&#8217;t want to get in the way of knowing how to ask where the bathroom is, is this water potable, what is the word for ticket, how to ask for directions, how to order in a restaurant.  And you can&#8217;t do both, unless your social studies lesson for the day is how to ask for a bus ticket to Austin in Spanish to illustrate how hard it is to&#8230;somethingsomething politically correct.  Which is not social studies, especially the social studies which is impostering as history.</p>
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		<title>By: Margo/Mom</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/02/incomprehensible-wisconsin-history-in-spanish/#comment-43928</link>
		<dc:creator>Margo/Mom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 21:12:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=7571#comment-43928</guid>
		<description>Richard:

And how would you know that they had learned social studies? I would think that the ability to outscore your peers on a social studies test would be a reasonable indicator. I am being as clear and direct on this point as I possibly can. What standard would you prefer to use? And would you then be asserting that learning in any other content areas is irrelevant? Is there any possibility that one is capable of learning two things at one time (say Spanish and social studies? or math and science? or reading and writing?) Or must we continue to think of school as 30 minutes of social studies followed by 30 minutes of (totally unrelated) language experience followed by 30 minutes of mathematics with no application within the following 30 minutes in which science is taught?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard:</p>
<p>And how would you know that they had learned social studies? I would think that the ability to outscore your peers on a social studies test would be a reasonable indicator. I am being as clear and direct on this point as I possibly can. What standard would you prefer to use? And would you then be asserting that learning in any other content areas is irrelevant? Is there any possibility that one is capable of learning two things at one time (say Spanish and social studies? or math and science? or reading and writing?) Or must we continue to think of school as 30 minutes of social studies followed by 30 minutes of (totally unrelated) language experience followed by 30 minutes of mathematics with no application within the following 30 minutes in which science is taught?</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Aubrey</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2009/02/incomprehensible-wisconsin-history-in-spanish/#comment-43927</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Aubrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:49:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=7571#comment-43927</guid>
		<description>Margo.
The point, I keep saying, is learning social studies.
You learn language by immersion. I worked with American Field Service students for over twenty-five years.  I know how it works.  I scored pretty high on the Defense Language Aptitude Test and I know how intense language teaching works. I studied Latin and French in the conventional method.
I&#039;ve had three kids age twelve from Mexico in my home for a year.  My kids spent a summer with a Mexican family.
I have an idea, okay?
Now, let me repeat, as many times as is necessary.  (Wait. Considering the number of times you dodged the point about armed teachers, I may want to rethink that).
The point is learning or not learning social studies.
Clear?
Didn&#039;t think so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Margo.<br />
The point, I keep saying, is learning social studies.<br />
You learn language by immersion. I worked with American Field Service students for over twenty-five years.  I know how it works.  I scored pretty high on the Defense Language Aptitude Test and I know how intense language teaching works. I studied Latin and French in the conventional method.<br />
I&#8217;ve had three kids age twelve from Mexico in my home for a year.  My kids spent a summer with a Mexican family.<br />
I have an idea, okay?<br />
Now, let me repeat, as many times as is necessary.  (Wait. Considering the number of times you dodged the point about armed teachers, I may want to rethink that).<br />
The point is learning or not learning social studies.<br />
Clear?<br />
Didn&#8217;t think so.</p>
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