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	<title>Comments on: Wasted college dollars</title>
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	<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/12/wasted-college-dollars/</link>
	<description>Thinking and Linking by Joanne Jacobs</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 04:51:22 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Dal</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/12/wasted-college-dollars/#comment-42448</link>
		<dc:creator>Dal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Dec 2008 21:56:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6798#comment-42448</guid>
		<description>College is useful as a signalling function, as well as in terms of actual skills learned.  When I was hiring for programming positions a number of years back, I counted a technical school credential higher than a Bachelor&#039;s (due to focus of education on useful skills), and a Bachelor&#039;s in CS or Math or Comp Engr above a Masters or MBA (due to time since relevant courses).  The ideal candidate would have been a computer lab aid, with either a BSCS or a technical college cert.

As far as signalling value received, those who attend and flunk out do get to check the box which says &quot;some college&quot;, which is something.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>College is useful as a signalling function, as well as in terms of actual skills learned.  When I was hiring for programming positions a number of years back, I counted a technical school credential higher than a Bachelor&#8217;s (due to focus of education on useful skills), and a Bachelor&#8217;s in CS or Math or Comp Engr above a Masters or MBA (due to time since relevant courses).  The ideal candidate would have been a computer lab aid, with either a BSCS or a technical college cert.</p>
<p>As far as signalling value received, those who attend and flunk out do get to check the box which says &#8220;some college&#8221;, which is something.</p>
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		<title>By: david foster</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/12/wasted-college-dollars/#comment-42447</link>
		<dc:creator>david foster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Dec 2008 15:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6798#comment-42447</guid>
		<description>Note the implicit assumption: If someone doesn&#039;t get a *degree*, then the time &amp; money spent on his education is wasted.

If we actually believed that people were learning useful and important things while in college, then the experience would be worthwhile in itself, degree or no degree. You don&#039;t automatically forget your class in Plato just because you didn&#039;t get a degree, nor do you automatically forget what you learned about a practical skill such as accounting or computer programming.

But, of course, college in America today is increasingly about screening and certification, not about education. To a substantial extent, it is a toll gate which requires payment to the class of professors and administrators in exchange for the opportunity to pursue income and status.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Note the implicit assumption: If someone doesn&#8217;t get a *degree*, then the time &amp; money spent on his education is wasted.</p>
<p>If we actually believed that people were learning useful and important things while in college, then the experience would be worthwhile in itself, degree or no degree. You don&#8217;t automatically forget your class in Plato just because you didn&#8217;t get a degree, nor do you automatically forget what you learned about a practical skill such as accounting or computer programming.</p>
<p>But, of course, college in America today is increasingly about screening and certification, not about education. To a substantial extent, it is a toll gate which requires payment to the class of professors and administrators in exchange for the opportunity to pursue income and status.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Tinkler</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/12/wasted-college-dollars/#comment-42446</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Tinkler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Dec 2008 14:41:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6798#comment-42446</guid>
		<description>The &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.hws.edu/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;reasonably selective liberal arts college&lt;/a&gt; where I teach hired a former high school math teacher to run our math tutoring.  And what&#039;s worse, the provost announced this hire as though it was something to be proud of.

Sad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The <a href="http://www.hws.edu/" rel="nofollow">reasonably selective liberal arts college</a> where I teach hired a former high school math teacher to run our math tutoring.  And what&#8217;s worse, the provost announced this hire as though it was something to be proud of.</p>
<p>Sad.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/12/wasted-college-dollars/#comment-42445</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Dec 2008 16:24:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6798#comment-42445</guid>
		<description>Darren,

  I can do you one better, in a recent course I completed at college, the 2nd exam dealt with basic symbolic logic, base number conversions, and basic statistics (mean, variance, std deviation)...these are concepts I learned in middle and high school, I got a 93/100 on the exam, the class average was 69.7, and at the end 5 students managed to fail the class outright (2 other students dropped or withdrew).  The student class population was approximately 85% of students under the age of 25, only 3 or 4 of us were over 25, and from what I saw, we did much better than the rest of the students.

No calculators were permitted on any of the exams, but the professor covered the material quite well in class, and had lecture notes online for use in study and exam preparation (of course, wikipedia and google helps as study aids also).

It&#039;s pathetic to see students admitted to college who have no mastery of algebra/geometry/basic statistics along with a working knowledge of biology, chemistry, or physics, and excellent writing skills (including composition and literature).  It&#039;s amazing how far our educational system has declined in the 30 years since I was enrolled in 9th grade.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Darren,</p>
<p>  I can do you one better, in a recent course I completed at college, the 2nd exam dealt with basic symbolic logic, base number conversions, and basic statistics (mean, variance, std deviation)&#8230;these are concepts I learned in middle and high school, I got a 93/100 on the exam, the class average was 69.7, and at the end 5 students managed to fail the class outright (2 other students dropped or withdrew).  The student class population was approximately 85% of students under the age of 25, only 3 or 4 of us were over 25, and from what I saw, we did much better than the rest of the students.</p>
<p>No calculators were permitted on any of the exams, but the professor covered the material quite well in class, and had lecture notes online for use in study and exam preparation (of course, wikipedia and google helps as study aids also).</p>
<p>It&#8217;s pathetic to see students admitted to college who have no mastery of algebra/geometry/basic statistics along with a working knowledge of biology, chemistry, or physics, and excellent writing skills (including composition and literature).  It&#8217;s amazing how far our educational system has declined in the 30 years since I was enrolled in 9th grade.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Brandshaft</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/12/wasted-college-dollars/#comment-42444</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Brandshaft</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Dec 2008 12:18:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6798#comment-42444</guid>
		<description>There are a few things about college that never get into these debates:

My mother told me that during the great depression, one need a college degree to be a sales &quot;girl&quot; at Woolworth&#039;s. When there are more applicants than jobs, employers can be overly choosey.  

When I worked for Hughes Aircraft Company, some non-technical administrative jobs required a college degree--in anything.  I argued that if they didn&#039;t care what the degree was, the requirement was not real.   The counter-argument I got was that the degree showed the applicant had the perseverance to go thru four years of useless study to raise his future earning potential.

As long as we have this kind of thinking, it makes sense for any individual to try for a degree.   Of course, if everyone had them, some other spurious requirement would need to be invented.

The root problem is this:  Our culture assumes that almost every able male should spend roughly 40 hours/week, 50 weeks/year, 45 years/lifetime at work for which he gets a formal salary.  This is no longer the way society gets useful work done but an end in itself.  Until we restructure our economy so advancing technology gives us more leisure instead of &quot;not enough work to go around&quot; we will have many pathological side effects of too many people chasing too few jobs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are a few things about college that never get into these debates:</p>
<p>My mother told me that during the great depression, one need a college degree to be a sales &#8220;girl&#8221; at Woolworth&#8217;s. When there are more applicants than jobs, employers can be overly choosey.  </p>
<p>When I worked for Hughes Aircraft Company, some non-technical administrative jobs required a college degree&#8211;in anything.  I argued that if they didn&#8217;t care what the degree was, the requirement was not real.   The counter-argument I got was that the degree showed the applicant had the perseverance to go thru four years of useless study to raise his future earning potential.</p>
<p>As long as we have this kind of thinking, it makes sense for any individual to try for a degree.   Of course, if everyone had them, some other spurious requirement would need to be invented.</p>
<p>The root problem is this:  Our culture assumes that almost every able male should spend roughly 40 hours/week, 50 weeks/year, 45 years/lifetime at work for which he gets a formal salary.  This is no longer the way society gets useful work done but an end in itself.  Until we restructure our economy so advancing technology gives us more leisure instead of &#8220;not enough work to go around&#8221; we will have many pathological side effects of too many people chasing too few jobs.</p>
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		<title>By: Darren</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/12/wasted-college-dollars/#comment-42443</link>
		<dc:creator>Darren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 19:15:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6798#comment-42443</guid>
		<description>Crap rolls downhill.

Last week I gave a test in my algebra class.  More than one student thought that 4.9+5.2=9.11

Adding decimals is *not* something I&#039;m supposed to teach in an algebra class.  This calculation was part of a larger problem involving inequalities.

And I have many similar examples--sadly, from that same test.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Crap rolls downhill.</p>
<p>Last week I gave a test in my algebra class.  More than one student thought that 4.9+5.2=9.11</p>
<p>Adding decimals is *not* something I&#8217;m supposed to teach in an algebra class.  This calculation was part of a larger problem involving inequalities.</p>
<p>And I have many similar examples&#8211;sadly, from that same test.</p>
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		<title>By: Bandit</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/12/wasted-college-dollars/#comment-42442</link>
		<dc:creator>Bandit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 18:34:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6798#comment-42442</guid>
		<description>Let me add that Mr. Steyn is spot on in his assessment of college picking up for the failures of secondary education.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let me add that Mr. Steyn is spot on in his assessment of college picking up for the failures of secondary education.</p>
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		<title>By: Bandit</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/12/wasted-college-dollars/#comment-42441</link>
		<dc:creator>Bandit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 18:12:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think Zac meant going to UMass-Amherst was a waste of money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Zac meant going to UMass-Amherst was a waste of money.</p>
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		<title>By: Cardinal Fang</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/12/wasted-college-dollars/#comment-42440</link>
		<dc:creator>Cardinal Fang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 16:23:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Is there any reason to believe Joe the Plumber is actually writing his book? Usually book deals like his involve Joe the Ghostwriter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there any reason to believe Joe the Plumber is actually writing his book? Usually book deals like his involve Joe the Ghostwriter.</p>
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