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	<title>Comments on: How much for a recommendation letter?</title>
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	<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/11/how-much-for-a-recommendation-letter/</link>
	<description>Thinking and Linking by Joanne Jacobs</description>
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		<title>By: Miller T. Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/11/how-much-for-a-recommendation-letter/#comment-41227</link>
		<dc:creator>Miller T. Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:42:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6316#comment-41227</guid>
		<description>Sorry patricia, but the position Margo is taking is so incredibly unreasonable that the &#039;troll&#039; comment came to mind quite naturally.

I cannot imagine a more unreasonable position.  Seriously.  An attitude of unmitigated entitlement and snarkiness could very well be a troll.

But maybe it&#039;s just me she is responding to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry patricia, but the position Margo is taking is so incredibly unreasonable that the &#8216;troll&#8217; comment came to mind quite naturally.</p>
<p>I cannot imagine a more unreasonable position.  Seriously.  An attitude of unmitigated entitlement and snarkiness could very well be a troll.</p>
<p>But maybe it&#8217;s just me she is responding to.</p>
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		<title>By: SuperSub</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/11/how-much-for-a-recommendation-letter/#comment-41226</link>
		<dc:creator>SuperSub</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:40:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6316#comment-41226</guid>
		<description>Recommend (Merriam Webster):
a: to present as worthy of acceptance or trial
b: to endorse as fit, worthy, or competent

So, if the student is not fit in your eyes for college, you should not write a letter of recommendation. I once asked a wise old teacher what to do if I were asked to write a letter by someone who I saw as unfit, and he suggested that I tell them that my letter would do more to hurt them than help them.

As for the form vs personalized letter discussion, every letter of recommendation that I have ever received (from high school on) has been quite personalized to my achievements and qualities. My employers have commented during the hiring process that they were quite pleased with the quality and honesty in my recommendation letters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Recommend (Merriam Webster):<br />
a: to present as worthy of acceptance or trial<br />
b: to endorse as fit, worthy, or competent</p>
<p>So, if the student is not fit in your eyes for college, you should not write a letter of recommendation. I once asked a wise old teacher what to do if I were asked to write a letter by someone who I saw as unfit, and he suggested that I tell them that my letter would do more to hurt them than help them.</p>
<p>As for the form vs personalized letter discussion, every letter of recommendation that I have ever received (from high school on) has been quite personalized to my achievements and qualities. My employers have commented during the hiring process that they were quite pleased with the quality and honesty in my recommendation letters.</p>
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		<title>By: Lightly Seasoned</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/11/how-much-for-a-recommendation-letter/#comment-41225</link>
		<dc:creator>Lightly Seasoned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:00:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6316#comment-41225</guid>
		<description>Margo:  Ah, everyone except the person writing the letter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Margo:  Ah, everyone except the person writing the letter.</p>
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		<title>By: patricia</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/11/how-much-for-a-recommendation-letter/#comment-41224</link>
		<dc:creator>patricia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:57:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6316#comment-41224</guid>
		<description>Miller T. Smith, I agree with your perspective on LORs, but I want to defend Margo/Mom here from one thing in your last comment.  She is not a troll.  She has strong opinions and expresses them forcefully, but whatever you think about her opinions, she does not appear to be baiting you or anyone on any thread, that I&#039;ve ever seen.  I read the comments on Joanne&#039;s site frequently (it&#039;s a great group of commenters) and while I often don&#039;t agree with Margo/Mom, I have not found her unreasonable, rude, offensive, off-topic or any other way one could legitimately characterize a troll.

I will say again:  I agree with your perspective above.  But calling Margo/Mom a troll does your argument no favor.  You engage with her quite well, until the name calling, but it diminishes your rhetoric.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Miller T. Smith, I agree with your perspective on LORs, but I want to defend Margo/Mom here from one thing in your last comment.  She is not a troll.  She has strong opinions and expresses them forcefully, but whatever you think about her opinions, she does not appear to be baiting you or anyone on any thread, that I&#8217;ve ever seen.  I read the comments on Joanne&#8217;s site frequently (it&#8217;s a great group of commenters) and while I often don&#8217;t agree with Margo/Mom, I have not found her unreasonable, rude, offensive, off-topic or any other way one could legitimately characterize a troll.</p>
<p>I will say again:  I agree with your perspective above.  But calling Margo/Mom a troll does your argument no favor.  You engage with her quite well, until the name calling, but it diminishes your rhetoric.</p>
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		<title>By: Miller T. Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/11/how-much-for-a-recommendation-letter/#comment-41223</link>
		<dc:creator>Miller T. Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 19:53:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6316#comment-41223</guid>
		<description>1.	Margo/Mom wrote:

My comments [found between brackets]
Miller:
You seem to be saying that a LOR is some kind of glowing endorsement (which makes the issue of paying for them even more odious) [Uh…what do you think the word RECOMMENDATION means?  The use of the word in a letter IS an endorsement!  You are not being serious here.]. I don’t see it that way. I have written endorsements that said no more than what I thought a person was capable of, or good at [Then why write them?]. Whether that fits well with what the recipient (the employer or program) is looking for is up to them to determine [The ones I write are requested by specific programs for specific reasons requesting that I evaluate a student for admission to their program.  General pabulum I leave to the teachers who write anything for everyone].
I have never had the advantage of working under a contract, so my judgment has tended to be bounded more by professional standards, as well as the policies and procedures of my employer. I cannot imagine, however, that somewhere in that great vast general contract that has been hashed out over time between your union representatives and your district that there isn’t some clause that pertains to appropriate reporting on students [A letter of RECOMMENDATION (see that highly specific word again?) has nothing to do with “…appropriate reporting on students”  A RECOMMENDATION is a personal endorsement of a student who, by your judgment, meets your standards for which you are endorsing them.  If you want a proper report on a student, well, I do those all the time for progress reports, IEP reports, and the like.  If a college wants to know if little Jane shows up on time with a check off list saying all the time, most of the time, half the time, etc, then by all means I fill those out.  But that is NOT a Letter of RECOMMENDATION.  That you confound the two speaks volumes]. It may not specify in words “letter of recommendation,” however, I would guess that there is some consistent language. I would also be very surprised if preparing students for life beyond high school (including college, post-secondary programs, or employment) were not a part of the mission of your district [Ooo.  Snarky aren’t we.  At no time or by any stretch of the imagination is a LOR a way to prepare a student for life.  Why would it be?  A LOR would be an expression by a sincere teacher about how well a student has been prepared.  The LOR does not prepare a student.  Come on now, you must be pulling my leg!].
I am totally unsure of the point that you believe you are making by balking at writing letters for any and all who request [To do so would make all LORs that I wrote worthless and worthy of the circular file.], or punishing students for your district’s policy [Not writing a LOR is not a punishment from me.  How could it be?  Do you really insist that I write a letter endorsing a student?  Why?  To make them feel better?  How could it be worth anything to anyone?  You’re joking…you must be.]. I personally don’t see what is abhorrent about writing an honest letter (sketchy as the across the board model that you were following for those for whom you could not say something positive) that either recommends the student’s desired course [Why would I recommend a course the student already desires?  Strange logic or lack thereof here, Margo], or some other that you find more appropriate. In your paid position, as teacher, you are privy to information on students. Requiring that you report that information to further the mission consistent goals of students seems to me to be absolutely a part of the job–whether your contract includes the words “Letter of Recommendation” or not. Why make everything so difficult? [I will make a report that my school system requires for a specific purpose, but NEVER a Letter of RECOMMENDATION!  That belongs to me and me alone and no one has the right-moral or legal-to force me to say good or bad things about anyone as if it were my opinion and true thoughts.  That you think so reveals your Stalinist mindset.  You have to be a troll.]
[How about this Margo:  Would you accept a LOR from me (being my duty and all as you say) that specifically said that the student has no business going to college, is hostile and argumentative, consistently late with work, their work is always incomplete and or poor quality, fails all tests, etc?  If you would reject such a letter as my right to write, then your position is the same as mine, if not, you are a troll]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1.	Margo/Mom wrote:</p>
<p>My comments [found between brackets]<br />
Miller:<br />
You seem to be saying that a LOR is some kind of glowing endorsement (which makes the issue of paying for them even more odious) [Uh…what do you think the word RECOMMENDATION means?  The use of the word in a letter IS an endorsement!  You are not being serious here.]. I don’t see it that way. I have written endorsements that said no more than what I thought a person was capable of, or good at [Then why write them?]. Whether that fits well with what the recipient (the employer or program) is looking for is up to them to determine [The ones I write are requested by specific programs for specific reasons requesting that I evaluate a student for admission to their program.  General pabulum I leave to the teachers who write anything for everyone].<br />
I have never had the advantage of working under a contract, so my judgment has tended to be bounded more by professional standards, as well as the policies and procedures of my employer. I cannot imagine, however, that somewhere in that great vast general contract that has been hashed out over time between your union representatives and your district that there isn’t some clause that pertains to appropriate reporting on students [A letter of RECOMMENDATION (see that highly specific word again?) has nothing to do with “…appropriate reporting on students”  A RECOMMENDATION is a personal endorsement of a student who, by your judgment, meets your standards for which you are endorsing them.  If you want a proper report on a student, well, I do those all the time for progress reports, IEP reports, and the like.  If a college wants to know if little Jane shows up on time with a check off list saying all the time, most of the time, half the time, etc, then by all means I fill those out.  But that is NOT a Letter of RECOMMENDATION.  That you confound the two speaks volumes]. It may not specify in words “letter of recommendation,” however, I would guess that there is some consistent language. I would also be very surprised if preparing students for life beyond high school (including college, post-secondary programs, or employment) were not a part of the mission of your district [Ooo.  Snarky aren’t we.  At no time or by any stretch of the imagination is a LOR a way to prepare a student for life.  Why would it be?  A LOR would be an expression by a sincere teacher about how well a student has been prepared.  The LOR does not prepare a student.  Come on now, you must be pulling my leg!].<br />
I am totally unsure of the point that you believe you are making by balking at writing letters for any and all who request [To do so would make all LORs that I wrote worthless and worthy of the circular file.], or punishing students for your district’s policy [Not writing a LOR is not a punishment from me.  How could it be?  Do you really insist that I write a letter endorsing a student?  Why?  To make them feel better?  How could it be worth anything to anyone?  You’re joking…you must be.]. I personally don’t see what is abhorrent about writing an honest letter (sketchy as the across the board model that you were following for those for whom you could not say something positive) that either recommends the student’s desired course [Why would I recommend a course the student already desires?  Strange logic or lack thereof here, Margo], or some other that you find more appropriate. In your paid position, as teacher, you are privy to information on students. Requiring that you report that information to further the mission consistent goals of students seems to me to be absolutely a part of the job–whether your contract includes the words “Letter of Recommendation” or not. Why make everything so difficult? [I will make a report that my school system requires for a specific purpose, but NEVER a Letter of RECOMMENDATION!  That belongs to me and me alone and no one has the right-moral or legal-to force me to say good or bad things about anyone as if it were my opinion and true thoughts.  That you think so reveals your Stalinist mindset.  You have to be a troll.]<br />
[How about this Margo:  Would you accept a LOR from me (being my duty and all as you say) that specifically said that the student has no business going to college, is hostile and argumentative, consistently late with work, their work is always incomplete and or poor quality, fails all tests, etc?  If you would reject such a letter as my right to write, then your position is the same as mine, if not, you are a troll]</p>
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		<title>By: Margo/Mom</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/11/how-much-for-a-recommendation-letter/#comment-41222</link>
		<dc:creator>Margo/Mom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 16:48:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6316#comment-41222</guid>
		<description>LS:

I would say for students, parents, administrators, the BOE, some lawyers and the programs requesting the LORs, based on Miller&#039;s first post about his non-compliant compliance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LS:</p>
<p>I would say for students, parents, administrators, the BOE, some lawyers and the programs requesting the LORs, based on Miller&#8217;s first post about his non-compliant compliance.</p>
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		<title>By: Lightly Seasoned</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/11/how-much-for-a-recommendation-letter/#comment-41221</link>
		<dc:creator>Lightly Seasoned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 16:41:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6316#comment-41221</guid>
		<description>Why make everything so difficult?

Indeed.  For whom?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why make everything so difficult?</p>
<p>Indeed.  For whom?</p>
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		<title>By: Margo/Mom</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/11/how-much-for-a-recommendation-letter/#comment-41220</link>
		<dc:creator>Margo/Mom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:27:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6316#comment-41220</guid>
		<description>Miller:

You seem to be saying that a LOR is some kind of glowing endorsement (which makes the issue of paying for them even more odious). I don&#039;t see it that way. I have written endorsements that said no more than what I thought a person was capable of, or good at. Whether that fits well with what the recipient (the employer or program) is looking for is up to them to determine.

I have never had the advantage of working under a contract, so my judgement has tended to be bounded more by professional standards, as well as the policies and procedures of my employer. I cannot imagine, however, that somewhere in that great vast general contract that has been hashed out over time between your union representatives and your district that there isn&#039;t some clause that pertains to appropriate reporting on students. It may not specify in words &quot;letter of recommendation,&quot; however, I would guess that there is some consistent language. I would also be very surprised if preparing students for life beyond high school (including college, post-secondary programs, or employment) were not a part of the mission of your district.

I am totally unsure of the point that you believe you are making by balking at writing letters for any and all who request, or punishing students for your district&#039;s policy. I personally don&#039;t see what is abhorrant about writing an honest letter (sketchy as the across the board model that you were following for those for whom you could not say something positive) that either recommends the student&#039;s desired course, or some other that you find more appropriate. In your paid position, as teacher, you are privy to information on students. Requiring that you report that information to further the mission consistent goals of students seems to me to be absolutely a part of the job--whether your contract includes the words &quot;Letter of Recommendation&quot; or not. Why make everything so difficult?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Miller:</p>
<p>You seem to be saying that a LOR is some kind of glowing endorsement (which makes the issue of paying for them even more odious). I don&#8217;t see it that way. I have written endorsements that said no more than what I thought a person was capable of, or good at. Whether that fits well with what the recipient (the employer or program) is looking for is up to them to determine.</p>
<p>I have never had the advantage of working under a contract, so my judgement has tended to be bounded more by professional standards, as well as the policies and procedures of my employer. I cannot imagine, however, that somewhere in that great vast general contract that has been hashed out over time between your union representatives and your district that there isn&#8217;t some clause that pertains to appropriate reporting on students. It may not specify in words &#8220;letter of recommendation,&#8221; however, I would guess that there is some consistent language. I would also be very surprised if preparing students for life beyond high school (including college, post-secondary programs, or employment) were not a part of the mission of your district.</p>
<p>I am totally unsure of the point that you believe you are making by balking at writing letters for any and all who request, or punishing students for your district&#8217;s policy. I personally don&#8217;t see what is abhorrant about writing an honest letter (sketchy as the across the board model that you were following for those for whom you could not say something positive) that either recommends the student&#8217;s desired course, or some other that you find more appropriate. In your paid position, as teacher, you are privy to information on students. Requiring that you report that information to further the mission consistent goals of students seems to me to be absolutely a part of the job&#8211;whether your contract includes the words &#8220;Letter of Recommendation&#8221; or not. Why make everything so difficult?</p>
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		<title>By: Nels Nelson</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/11/how-much-for-a-recommendation-letter/#comment-41219</link>
		<dc:creator>Nels Nelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 08:47:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6316#comment-41219</guid>
		<description>When it was time for me to go out into the real world, I thought it would be a good idea to get a recommendation letter for the summer job I&#039;d had all through high school and college. I knew my boss was very busy and would probably never get around to it. So I wrote it up myself, on letterhead and ready to go, and all she had to do was read it and sign it. Seems like a good solution for these high schoolers as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When it was time for me to go out into the real world, I thought it would be a good idea to get a recommendation letter for the summer job I&#8217;d had all through high school and college. I knew my boss was very busy and would probably never get around to it. So I wrote it up myself, on letterhead and ready to go, and all she had to do was read it and sign it. Seems like a good solution for these high schoolers as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Miller Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/11/how-much-for-a-recommendation-letter/#comment-41218</link>
		<dc:creator>Miller Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 04:32:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6316#comment-41218</guid>
		<description>Parent2 said, &quot;A teacher also shouldn’t be tracking down other teachers, and surveying their opinions.&quot;  Uh...why not?

Jenkins was across the hall and Dr. Rice was next door.  All of us have had the child or presently teach her.  She is a remarkable student who just stands out in the crowd of other honors and AP students.

They were more than glad to provide quotes and the child, parents, and college recruiter absolutely loved it.  It made the LOR special and not that run of the mill garbage they always see.

Strange idea you have there Parent2.  You demand the right to an LOR but only one that is unremarkable and plain.  You and others here prefer a form letter.  How strange.  Is that the best you expect?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Parent2 said, &#8220;A teacher also shouldn’t be tracking down other teachers, and surveying their opinions.&#8221;  Uh&#8230;why not?</p>
<p>Jenkins was across the hall and Dr. Rice was next door.  All of us have had the child or presently teach her.  She is a remarkable student who just stands out in the crowd of other honors and AP students.</p>
<p>They were more than glad to provide quotes and the child, parents, and college recruiter absolutely loved it.  It made the LOR special and not that run of the mill garbage they always see.</p>
<p>Strange idea you have there Parent2.  You demand the right to an LOR but only one that is unremarkable and plain.  You and others here prefer a form letter.  How strange.  Is that the best you expect?</p>
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