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	<title>Comments on: Elementary math stumps teachers</title>
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	<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/11/elementary-math-stumps-teachers/</link>
	<description>Thinking and Linking by Joanne Jacobs</description>
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		<title>By: Kefka</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/11/elementary-math-stumps-teachers/#comment-41062</link>
		<dc:creator>Kefka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:41:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6292#comment-41062</guid>
		<description>Good teachers get martyred all the time; it&#039;s almost common practice ini K-12 public schools in the U.S.

Why? Because the principals see good teachers as potentital threats to their jobs! Either by (1) directly taking their jobs one day, or (2) making them and their Ed School fad-based choices look bad.

Either way, a &#039;successful&#039; principal in a K-12 public school in the U.S. needs to have teachers just mediocre enough and miserable enough to get scores that are good, but not mind-blowingly great, on state mandated exams, and not want to risk their paycheck by challenging the status quo.

Of course, many good teachers that don&#039;t get martyred are just made miserable, on purpose, until they either &quot;know their place&quot; or quit...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good teachers get martyred all the time; it&#8217;s almost common practice ini K-12 public schools in the U.S.</p>
<p>Why? Because the principals see good teachers as potentital threats to their jobs! Either by (1) directly taking their jobs one day, or (2) making them and their Ed School fad-based choices look bad.</p>
<p>Either way, a &#8216;successful&#8217; principal in a K-12 public school in the U.S. needs to have teachers just mediocre enough and miserable enough to get scores that are good, but not mind-blowingly great, on state mandated exams, and not want to risk their paycheck by challenging the status quo.</p>
<p>Of course, many good teachers that don&#8217;t get martyred are just made miserable, on purpose, until they either &#8220;know their place&#8221; or quit&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Margo/Mom</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/11/elementary-math-stumps-teachers/#comment-41061</link>
		<dc:creator>Margo/Mom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:55:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6292#comment-41061</guid>
		<description>For the record, I would say that both martyrdom and missionary work provide poor impulses for professional teaching.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the record, I would say that both martyrdom and missionary work provide poor impulses for professional teaching.</p>
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		<title>By: Lightly Seasoned</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/11/elementary-math-stumps-teachers/#comment-41060</link>
		<dc:creator>Lightly Seasoned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 16:17:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6292#comment-41060</guid>
		<description>Margo:  might have been from edwonkette or another thread.  I thought I might be in the wrong context when I posted it... sorry... brain doesn&#039;t always thread properly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Margo:  might have been from edwonkette or another thread.  I thought I might be in the wrong context when I posted it&#8230; sorry&#8230; brain doesn&#8217;t always thread properly.</p>
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		<title>By: Margo/Mom</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/11/elementary-math-stumps-teachers/#comment-41059</link>
		<dc:creator>Margo/Mom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 15:10:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6292#comment-41059</guid>
		<description>&quot;If Margo is right, and in order to be a great teacher one must be a sort of martyr (I think that’s somewhat hyperbolic), then something is deeply, deeply wrong. &quot;

I&#039;m sorry--where did that come from?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If Margo is right, and in order to be a great teacher one must be a sort of martyr (I think that’s somewhat hyperbolic), then something is deeply, deeply wrong. &#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sorry&#8211;where did that come from?</p>
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		<title>By: Lightly Seasoned</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/11/elementary-math-stumps-teachers/#comment-41058</link>
		<dc:creator>Lightly Seasoned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 01:28:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6292#comment-41058</guid>
		<description>pm:  I appreciate your clarification.  I work with many excellent math teachers -- some of the best in my state if you look at test scores.  They freely claim they work much less than English teachers and will often taunt us (playfully, of course) about that.  I&#039;ve never seen any breakdown of hours per subject area or grade level.  I admit I&#039;d be spending a lot less time if I used a canned curriculum.

FWIW, my building has no shortage of applicants when math positions open up.  We had 30 something last year for two slots.

Please understand I love my job; if I didn&#039;t, I&#039;d be doing something else.  But that doesn&#039;t mean I don&#039;t have opinions about what needs to be done to improve working conditions and learning conditions for the children.  If Margo is right, and in order to be a great teacher one must be a sort of martyr (I think that&#039;s somewhat hyperbolic), then something is deeply, deeply wrong. We are never going to find enough martyrs to staff our schools.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>pm:  I appreciate your clarification.  I work with many excellent math teachers &#8212; some of the best in my state if you look at test scores.  They freely claim they work much less than English teachers and will often taunt us (playfully, of course) about that.  I&#8217;ve never seen any breakdown of hours per subject area or grade level.  I admit I&#8217;d be spending a lot less time if I used a canned curriculum.</p>
<p>FWIW, my building has no shortage of applicants when math positions open up.  We had 30 something last year for two slots.</p>
<p>Please understand I love my job; if I didn&#8217;t, I&#8217;d be doing something else.  But that doesn&#8217;t mean I don&#8217;t have opinions about what needs to be done to improve working conditions and learning conditions for the children.  If Margo is right, and in order to be a great teacher one must be a sort of martyr (I think that&#8217;s somewhat hyperbolic), then something is deeply, deeply wrong. We are never going to find enough martyrs to staff our schools.</p>
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		<title>By: Erin Johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/11/elementary-math-stumps-teachers/#comment-41057</link>
		<dc:creator>Erin Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 23:23:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6292#comment-41057</guid>
		<description>Susan, - Good luck.  The program is not highly expensive, readily available and I would strongly encourage you to take a look at it.  At first glance, Singapore may seem like many other traditional math programs but if you can go through the entire grade 1-6 program, the depth of mathematical understanding becomes more apparent.

In particular, the way that Singapore math uses bar graphs to teach students to solve complex, multi-step problems is outstanding.  But without going through the entire series, it would be difficult to see why a 3rd/4th grade teacher would need to present the material using a bar graph until he/she could see how the 5th grade students use them to solve extremely difficult problems.  Some of the 5th grade bar graph problems are more difficult than usually seen in Algebra.

It is unfortunate that your OSSU dictates EM and BM as these programs try hard but ultimately fail at getting students to both understand the underlying math concepts and become fluent enough with computation to make the transition to the symbolic math seen in Algebra easily. (In Singapore math, the transition from expressing problems/operations with bar graphs to using variables is rather simple and obvious.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Susan, &#8211; Good luck.  The program is not highly expensive, readily available and I would strongly encourage you to take a look at it.  At first glance, Singapore may seem like many other traditional math programs but if you can go through the entire grade 1-6 program, the depth of mathematical understanding becomes more apparent.</p>
<p>In particular, the way that Singapore math uses bar graphs to teach students to solve complex, multi-step problems is outstanding.  But without going through the entire series, it would be difficult to see why a 3rd/4th grade teacher would need to present the material using a bar graph until he/she could see how the 5th grade students use them to solve extremely difficult problems.  Some of the 5th grade bar graph problems are more difficult than usually seen in Algebra.</p>
<p>It is unfortunate that your OSSU dictates EM and BM as these programs try hard but ultimately fail at getting students to both understand the underlying math concepts and become fluent enough with computation to make the transition to the symbolic math seen in Algebra easily. (In Singapore math, the transition from expressing problems/operations with bar graphs to using variables is rather simple and obvious.)</p>
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		<title>By: pm</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/11/elementary-math-stumps-teachers/#comment-41056</link>
		<dc:creator>pm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 23:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6292#comment-41056</guid>
		<description>Updating the last paragraph of last post to...

If you were bothered by my questioning your judgement that math teachers --- don&#039;t --- work as hard as you do, then all I can say is that was meant as a challenge and not as condescension. I don’t find the judgement of a single teacher convincing, but perhaps by asking I would draw out a reference to something more convincing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Updating the last paragraph of last post to&#8230;</p>
<p>If you were bothered by my questioning your judgement that math teachers &#8212; don&#8217;t &#8212; work as hard as you do, then all I can say is that was meant as a challenge and not as condescension. I don’t find the judgement of a single teacher convincing, but perhaps by asking I would draw out a reference to something more convincing.</p>
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		<title>By: pm</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/11/elementary-math-stumps-teachers/#comment-41055</link>
		<dc:creator>pm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 23:01:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6292#comment-41055</guid>
		<description>LightlySeasoned,

First I was addressing this statement:

&quot;But I’ll be goddamned if a math teacher is going to make more than me for doing the same work. Actually, less work.&quot;

If that was not you, then I&#039;m sorry for the misguided statement.

In regards to your question, I&#039;ll take that to mean you think I have been to you.

Seems like it wasn&#039;t necessary for me to invoke basic principles, so if that is what bothered you I can only say that is a reflection of me and not you.

If you were bothered by my questioning your judgement that math teachers work as hard as you do, then all I can say is that was meant as a challenge and not as condescension.  I don&#039;t find the judgement of a single teacher convincing, but perhaps by asking I would draw out a reference to something more convincing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LightlySeasoned,</p>
<p>First I was addressing this statement:</p>
<p>&#8220;But I’ll be goddamned if a math teacher is going to make more than me for doing the same work. Actually, less work.&#8221;</p>
<p>If that was not you, then I&#8217;m sorry for the misguided statement.</p>
<p>In regards to your question, I&#8217;ll take that to mean you think I have been to you.</p>
<p>Seems like it wasn&#8217;t necessary for me to invoke basic principles, so if that is what bothered you I can only say that is a reflection of me and not you.</p>
<p>If you were bothered by my questioning your judgement that math teachers work as hard as you do, then all I can say is that was meant as a challenge and not as condescension.  I don&#8217;t find the judgement of a single teacher convincing, but perhaps by asking I would draw out a reference to something more convincing.</p>
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		<title>By: susan engler</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/11/elementary-math-stumps-teachers/#comment-41054</link>
		<dc:creator>susan engler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 20:01:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6292#comment-41054</guid>
		<description>Erin,  I have heard great things about Singapore math and would love to try it; we are expected to do what our OSSU dictates, which is Everyday Math and Bridges Math. I have taught everything from Saxton to Silver Burdett and have never been happy with any one curriculum. I will definitely check out Singapore Math.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Erin,  I have heard great things about Singapore math and would love to try it; we are expected to do what our OSSU dictates, which is Everyday Math and Bridges Math. I have taught everything from Saxton to Silver Burdett and have never been happy with any one curriculum. I will definitely check out Singapore Math.</p>
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		<title>By: Lightly Seasoned</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/11/elementary-math-stumps-teachers/#comment-41053</link>
		<dc:creator>Lightly Seasoned</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 15:53:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=6292#comment-41053</guid>
		<description>Wolf:  I didn&#039;t stay in c.e. because I didn&#039;t like it enough to spend the rest of my life doing it.  I switched to English and worked for many years in public relations doing print work before going into teaching.

I wouldn&#039;t be so quick to judge teacher hours by when people arrive and leave.  There are many days I&#039;m out of there at the contracted time, but then spend three or four hours after dinner planning/grading.  We do have a small amount of flexibility in that area (although not in when we get to go pee :)).

pm:  Have I been condescending to you in some way during this conversation:?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wolf:  I didn&#8217;t stay in c.e. because I didn&#8217;t like it enough to spend the rest of my life doing it.  I switched to English and worked for many years in public relations doing print work before going into teaching.</p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t be so quick to judge teacher hours by when people arrive and leave.  There are many days I&#8217;m out of there at the contracted time, but then spend three or four hours after dinner planning/grading.  We do have a small amount of flexibility in that area (although not in when we get to go pee <img src='http://www.joannejacobs.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> ).</p>
<p>pm:  Have I been condescending to you in some way during this conversation:?</p>
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