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	<title>Comments on: Beyond schools</title>
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	<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/09/beyond-schools/</link>
	<description>Thinking and Linking by Joanne Jacobs</description>
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		<title>By: Margo/Mom</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/09/beyond-schools/#comment-39434</link>
		<dc:creator>Margo/Mom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2008 16:11:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=5821#comment-39434</guid>
		<description>And Andy will of course provide an example of a school having 60% kids with disabilities (300 out of 500).

There are, of course those, who would argue that it is far simpler to provide special education in a setting where all/most of the students have special needs.

One might also ask how it is that a school has such a concentration of students with disabilities--one might want to involve the CDC in diagnosing an epidemic of whatever it is that is causing this situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And Andy will of course provide an example of a school having 60% kids with disabilities (300 out of 500).</p>
<p>There are, of course those, who would argue that it is far simpler to provide special education in a setting where all/most of the students have special needs.</p>
<p>One might also ask how it is that a school has such a concentration of students with disabilities&#8211;one might want to involve the CDC in diagnosing an epidemic of whatever it is that is causing this situation.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Freeman</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/09/beyond-schools/#comment-39433</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Freeman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2008 13:46:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=5821#comment-39433</guid>
		<description>And now Margo is simply making things up.

I never said that the US had nothing to learn from other countries.  I pointed out that Finland is dealing with a very different situation than the US.  It&#039;s easy to have special education for 3 kids at a 100 kid school.  It&#039;s hard to have special education for 35 kids at a 100 kid school, or, as is the case in the US, 2-300 kids at a 500 kid school.

Margo doesn&#039;t seeom to find that relevant, which is another way of saying &quot;one size fits all&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And now Margo is simply making things up.</p>
<p>I never said that the US had nothing to learn from other countries.  I pointed out that Finland is dealing with a very different situation than the US.  It&#8217;s easy to have special education for 3 kids at a 100 kid school.  It&#8217;s hard to have special education for 35 kids at a 100 kid school, or, as is the case in the US, 2-300 kids at a 500 kid school.</p>
<p>Margo doesn&#8217;t seeom to find that relevant, which is another way of saying &#8220;one size fits all&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Margo/Mom</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/09/beyond-schools/#comment-39432</link>
		<dc:creator>Margo/Mom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 15:26:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=5821#comment-39432</guid>
		<description>For anyone who might disagree with Andy about the futility of learning from the successful experiences of other countries, I suggest the following: http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/49/40/36376641.pdf

It devotes a chapter to the Finnish experience with education for its immigrant population, and a discussion of the language of instruction for those students. Singapore also has language policy worth examining, as their population consists of so many language groups.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For anyone who might disagree with Andy about the futility of learning from the successful experiences of other countries, I suggest the following: <a href="http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/49/40/36376641.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/49/40/36376641.pdf</a></p>
<p>It devotes a chapter to the Finnish experience with education for its immigrant population, and a discussion of the language of instruction for those students. Singapore also has language policy worth examining, as their population consists of so many language groups.</p>
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		<title>By: Margo/Mom</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/09/beyond-schools/#comment-39431</link>
		<dc:creator>Margo/Mom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 15:05:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>You&#039;re right, Andy. America has nothing to learn from any other country who is outscoring us. They don&#039;t have our problems and our problems cannot be overcome.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right, Andy. America has nothing to learn from any other country who is outscoring us. They don&#8217;t have our problems and our problems cannot be overcome.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Freeman</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/09/beyond-schools/#comment-39430</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Freeman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:55:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Don&#039;t be dense.

You argued that teaching in 50 &quot;mother tongues&quot; was evidence of diversity.  It&#039;s not unless a significant number of people are being taught in a &quot;mother tongue&quot; that isn&#039;t the country&#039;s dominant language.  For all we know, it&#039;s one student for each of the 49 not-Finnish languages.

I suspect that the vast majority of students being taught in not-Finnish languages are being taught in other Scandanavian languages.

Finland is less diverse than Minnesota.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t be dense.</p>
<p>You argued that teaching in 50 &#8220;mother tongues&#8221; was evidence of diversity.  It&#8217;s not unless a significant number of people are being taught in a &#8220;mother tongue&#8221; that isn&#8217;t the country&#8217;s dominant language.  For all we know, it&#8217;s one student for each of the 49 not-Finnish languages.</p>
<p>I suspect that the vast majority of students being taught in not-Finnish languages are being taught in other Scandanavian languages.</p>
<p>Finland is less diverse than Minnesota.</p>
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		<title>By: Margo/Mom</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/09/beyond-schools/#comment-39429</link>
		<dc:creator>Margo/Mom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 13:09:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=5821#comment-39429</guid>
		<description>100% of students in Finland are taught in their &quot;mother tongue&quot; (which is why the cover so many langugage). In Singapore, I believe it is close to that, although the picture gets confusing because of the number of dialects, and the move by the government to urge adoption of Mandarin (following the lead of the Chinese government) for the official language of school for those of Chinese descent, coupled with the polyglot nature of their educational system over time. Most children are immersed in more than one language before they enter school.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>100% of students in Finland are taught in their &#8220;mother tongue&#8221; (which is why the cover so many langugage). In Singapore, I believe it is close to that, although the picture gets confusing because of the number of dialects, and the move by the government to urge adoption of Mandarin (following the lead of the Chinese government) for the official language of school for those of Chinese descent, coupled with the polyglot nature of their educational system over time. Most children are immersed in more than one language before they enter school.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Freeman</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/09/beyond-schools/#comment-39428</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Freeman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Sep 2008 01:42:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Note that Margo continues to duck &quot;what percentage of the folks are being taught in those &#039;mother tongues&#039;?&quot;

The fact remains that Finland is teaching a far less diverse population than Fresno.

Finland is less diverse than the least diverse US state.  As a result, they can do things that we can&#039;t do.

However, I will say that the Finish Rock Band, the Leningrad Cowboys, had one of the best closing numbers ever at one of their Moscow shows.

They played &quot;Sweet Home Alabama&quot;, backed by the Red Army Band, the Russian equivalent of the USMC Band.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Note that Margo continues to duck &#8220;what percentage of the folks are being taught in those &#8216;mother tongues&#8217;?&#8221;</p>
<p>The fact remains that Finland is teaching a far less diverse population than Fresno.</p>
<p>Finland is less diverse than the least diverse US state.  As a result, they can do things that we can&#8217;t do.</p>
<p>However, I will say that the Finish Rock Band, the Leningrad Cowboys, had one of the best closing numbers ever at one of their Moscow shows.</p>
<p>They played &#8220;Sweet Home Alabama&#8221;, backed by the Red Army Band, the Russian equivalent of the USMC Band.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Roulo</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/09/beyond-schools/#comment-39427</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Roulo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 19:49:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=5821#comment-39427</guid>
		<description>&quot;&lt;i&gt;Do you know of schools that are teaching any language groups in their native language as the primary medium of instruction throughout their K-12 experience?&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

No.

We *used* to do this in California (weren&#039;t supposed to, but it was common), but this has *mostly* gone away.  The problem in California, and the thing that motivated getting rid of this, was that the kids were *NOT* learning English.  This is fine if one wants inexpensive landscapers, but not so good if one wants the kids to be able to get reasonable jobs.

-Mark R.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;<i>Do you know of schools that are teaching any language groups in their native language as the primary medium of instruction throughout their K-12 experience?</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>No.</p>
<p>We *used* to do this in California (weren&#8217;t supposed to, but it was common), but this has *mostly* gone away.  The problem in California, and the thing that motivated getting rid of this, was that the kids were *NOT* learning English.  This is fine if one wants inexpensive landscapers, but not so good if one wants the kids to be able to get reasonable jobs.</p>
<p>-Mark R.</p>
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		<title>By: Margo/Mom</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/09/beyond-schools/#comment-39426</link>
		<dc:creator>Margo/Mom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 19:33:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Mark: It is not the number of languages that are being offered. It is whether that native language is being used as the Medium of Instruction (to use the term from Hong Kong). Do you know of schools that are teaching any language groups in their native language as the primary medium of instruction throughout their K-12 experience?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark: It is not the number of languages that are being offered. It is whether that native language is being used as the Medium of Instruction (to use the term from Hong Kong). Do you know of schools that are teaching any language groups in their native language as the primary medium of instruction throughout their K-12 experience?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Roulo</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/09/beyond-schools/#comment-39425</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Roulo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Sep 2008 19:09:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/?p=5821#comment-39425</guid>
		<description>&quot;&lt;i&gt;But I would still contend that what we offer is pretty much confined to stop-gap measures with the expectation that the ESL training will kick in and the student can then be instructed in English.&lt;/i&gt;&quot;

Yes, this is what we have.  I just want to understand what would constitute &#039;mother tongue&#039; instruction for you.  Would only educating the Spanish speakers in Spanish for K-12 count?  Or do we have to do everyone?  Or the top-10 groups?  Or what?  Top-50 in this country could well include Hmong and Russian ...

-Mark Roulo</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;<i>But I would still contend that what we offer is pretty much confined to stop-gap measures with the expectation that the ESL training will kick in and the student can then be instructed in English.</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes, this is what we have.  I just want to understand what would constitute &#8216;mother tongue&#8217; instruction for you.  Would only educating the Spanish speakers in Spanish for K-12 count?  Or do we have to do everyone?  Or the top-10 groups?  Or what?  Top-50 in this country could well include Hmong and Russian &#8230;</p>
<p>-Mark Roulo</p>
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