Comments on: Serve or flunk

By: Bandit

Bandit — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 18:08:40 +0000

2 more questions – what about for real work like bagging groceries or working at Dunkin donuts? Secondly – wouldn’t the schools have to add more beaurocracy to track this volunteering? Since this isn’t most schools forte would they expect the teachers to do it? Or would the magical hopesy unicorns do it?

By: SuperSub

SuperSub — Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:10:56 +0000

Margo-
I’d say that you analogies are a bit off the mark. In the cases you cited, the mandates had measureable effects that could not be reached though other measures.
Immunizations drastically improved public health and are safe and effective… and the same effect could not be achieved through any other way. Piecemeal implementation of immunizations by cities, counties, or states would be ineffective also… the mandate must be universal.
The Carnegie unit was established as a way to provide some evidence of learning in a nation that had tremendous growth in secondary education. Without some sort of universal standard, every new student would have to be individually evaluated for entrance to a school. Also, it is the concept of the Carnegie unit that allows for authentic or alternative forms of assessment to high-stakes testing… without it, all college-bound seniors would have to depend upon some sort of entrance examination.
Driving licenses are also required for basic public safety and health, and the same effect could not be achieved through other methods.

As for mandated community service… it does not have a measureable goal (how do you measure appreciation of volunteer work?) nor is a federal mandate required for it to occur (as many other have pointed out). In fact, the only measureable factor would be the amount of money the government would theoretically save by forcing citizens to perform basic labor.
Service learning and educational internships (doctors, teachers, etc.) are different because their goals are measureable and usually test an individual’s knowledge of certain fields.
And as for your “straw-man” argument against the examples of possible exceptions to acceptable community service… there is a huge body of evidence for over-regulation in just about every established law we have. There will be some types of “service” that most people would consider as volunteer work that will not be counted for one reason or another, either due to a lack of imagination or malice on the legislators’ part.

By: Richard Aubrey

Richard Aubrey — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 23:19:08 +0000

Good point, MJT.
Like the Puritans, they do not intend to leave you alone, not in the smallest part of your life.Like the Puritans, they appeal to a superior power–then God’s word, now their idea of the common good, against which none can argue–but the penalty now will probably be bankruptcy through legal fees than hanging.

By: mjtyson

mjtyson — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 21:41:32 +0000

There’s the unspoken assumption of Obama and supporters that “community service” is a better way to spend time compared to other things a person could spend that time doing. That is what really goads me. That Obama and others have the audacity to not only elevate their own particular interests into moral goods, but then to make their interests our mandatory interests. I should not have to “prove” to anyone that any of my time is spent in a morally or ethically proper way. It’s oddly puritanical.

By: Andy Freeman

Andy Freeman — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 21:19:51 +0000

> I would argue that the educational benefits of community service justify its inclusion in school curriculum

What are the “educational benefits” of Meals on Wheels as distinct from those of working at McDonalds?

If they have the same educational benefits, then why not let kids work at McDonalds to satisfy their “community service” requirement?

I note that cleaning up parks is also community service. If the mandate is expanded to include doing my yard-work (which is just as educational), I’ll support it.

By: Ragnarok

Ragnarok — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 20:18:41 +0000

“I would argue that the educational benefits of community service justify its inclusion in school curriculum…”

What educational benefits? I doubt that this would amount to anything more than checking a box.

As I said earlier: choice vs. forced unpaid labour.

And for the record, I believe in volunteering, but I’ll resist any attempt to force me to “do good”.

By: Quincy

Quincy — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 20:13:56 +0000

“and the public health benefits of combatting disease have justified mandated innoculations, the dangers of untrained drivers have justifed mandated drivers tests, etc”

So these measures, which legitimately protect the public from harm (communicable diseases and death/injury due to unfit drivers) fall into the same category as a community service mandate? Wow.

I think I understand why people fall for this ****. They can’t tell the difference between government proscribing things that would cause others injury and mandating things for people’s own good.

By: Richard Aubrey

Richard Aubrey — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 19:14:07 +0000

Margo.
Would the benefits of community service be obvious to and in those who strongly disliked it?

Both my kids were involved in various community service activities when in school. But if it were mandated, I’d insist they put up a stink. I’d pull them out of school.

IMO, the wonderfulness of the draft is most obvious to those who were not drafted. You get to know a lot of people from all over the country. Ditto college. Different socio-economic classes. Ditto, plus, in late adolescence, most people aren’t mature enough to take any lessons.

The exception is the determined liberal kid from a white background who goes into the Army neutral and comes out racist. There’s an epiphany for you.

By: lu-lu

lu-lu — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 19:12:52 +0000

When I saw this, I immediately thought of the practical issues…who is going to get middle schoolers to and from volunteer work? I didn’t have a car until I graduated from college (living in a semi-rural area). I did some tutoring and organized/worked on some food drives, but my walking-distance options were limited. Maybe my time in various musical groups would count, but really it would seem unfair for me to count stuff I enjoy (or even teaching it to kids) the same as picking up trash.

I’m now a mostly-at-home mom and I do more volunteer work than ever – tutoring and other work, all through my church. I also cook for sick folks, college church groups, etc. I’m thrilled to be able to do this, but the fact that I didn’t do as much when I was younger was not because I didn’t care – it was a lack of a car and other resources. Even if there were no other issues, I’d be hesitant to dump more obligations on folks who may not have the resources to handle them (and don’t get me started on how this might affect my community college students, who work and raise kids while taking classes).

By: Margo/Mom

Margo/Mom — Wed, 09 Jul 2008 18:50:39 +0000

I led off with a description of my personal distaste for both the term and the concept of “volunteerism.”

I would argue that the educational benefits of community service justify its inclusion in school curriculum–just as the carnegie unit, as a rough measure of equivalency has justified mandates regarding “seat time,” and the benefits of an educated citizenry have justified mandated education (and the public health benefits of combatting disease have justified mandated innoculations, the dangers of untrained drivers have justifed mandated drivers tests, etc). It is analogous to many of these other mandates that most who have posted here appear to have no problem with (begging my earlier suggestions that perhaps the problem was the source, or something inherent within the particular concept of community service).

While you may identify me as a member of the “Left,” with a certain set of pre-ordained attitudes (such as unfunded mandates of NCLB), I regard my opinions to be my own, with complete freedom to disagree (as I do) with those who charge that NCLB is an unfunded mandate.