Andrew Coulson compares public education to a 1971 Chevy Impala, which sold for $3,460.
That’s $19,011 in today’s dollars. If cars were like public schools, you would be compelled to buy one of these today, and to pay $43,479 for that privilege (2.3 times the original price).
But, thank heavens, the automobile industry is part of the free enterprise system that thrives everywhere in our economy outside the classroom.
A 2008 Impala costs $21,975. It comes “with technologies that could barely be imagined 40 years ago: OnStar satellite communications, side-curtain airbags, and anti-lock brakes, to name a few. And if you don’t like the looks of it, or if it doesn’t fit the needs of your family, you can buy something else — something bigger or smaller, faster or more fuel efficient.”
” See–laser eye surgery isn’t a health care system. It’s a product. Is there some data about an outcome of laser eye surgery in population terms?”
Laser eye surgery is a medical procedure, just like a hip replacement, setting a broken arm or removing a cyst. The difference is, laser eye surgery has not been priced and restricted by insurance companies, hence competition has resulted in the price of laser eye surgery dropping over the last two decades while the cost of other medical procedures has increased faster than the rate of inflation. As for outcome in population terms, I believe about 10 million Americans have had laser eye surgery since 1990, most since 2000 (due to price drops) and the current rate is about 1 million per year. Left to the control of insurance companies, I believe laser eye surgery would be more costly and available to fewer people.
And even if you want to insist laser eye surgery is a product, those surgeons who fail at providing better eye sight are soon out of business, leaving the more successful surgeons to choose from. Schools that fail to provide a good education suffer no such consequence. Further evidence of David’s assertion that “the market does a better job of providing just about everything than command and control systems do.”
I noticed you did not answer my question. Do you agree some of us have better/worse genes than others? Don’t you think life expectancy is related partially to genetics and not entirely on the quality and availability of health care?
All kinds of mixed fruits in this salad. Cliff wants to argue that a single procedure equates to the experience of a health care system. Two totally different things. That isolated procedure–and its means of delivery, via free market or government controlled means–is a part of the US health care system overall. Quincy and David argue that the US health care system is not sufficiently free of government interference to constitute a free market system. Challenge still stands–is there a free market health care system in the world demonstrating better population results? (and this relates to education because of the furor over whether our national education would be improved if the government stepped out and allowed the “free market” to take over). For that matter, is there a free market system of education offering better results? BTW–Fordham, in its Education Gadfly–hardly a left-wing rag, recently had a piece on its experience in closing underperforming charter schools. They found it ran counter to their expectations that parents would be happy to leave and go somewhere better. Moving a child from school to school is difficult, if not traumatic and many prefer to stay in the hope that things will get better, or because the devil that you know is better than the devil you don’t.
Supersub wants to quibble over the term “elective” as it is used in medical circles. It’s not my term–I believe it is used to refer to procedures that are not “emergency” and there the criteria would refer to an immediate danger to life (these are the things that a hospital cannot turn away if someone doesn’t have insurance or cash). I once spent three days in a hospital bed on pain medication waiting for an OR for “elective surgery” to set a broken bone in my leg. Needless to say, this was some sime ago. Today I would have been at home on pain meds and the surgery would have been a drive-by.
Where I live, a group monitors the availability of first prenatal appointments for low income mothers. This is a population that is virtually guaranteed coverage through Medicaid. The wait is typically 6-8 weeks. Might this be an indicator that helps to explain the discrepancies in infant mortality in the US based on such factors as race and income or, as Cliff and Reality Czech suggest, is it a poorly distributed gene pool?
One specialist that a family member sees books 3 months out, and this is fairly typical for that specialty. I am not certain where people get the impression that everything in the US is there when you need (or want) it.
Margo,
First, schooling: What I want is choice. Let the money follow my child, whether I send him to a private school, a public school, or something else. I don’t care whether you call this vouchers or not.
Clear?
Also note that public funding of education does not imply public schools, the bleating of the opposition notwithstanding.
Second, healthcare: The US healthcare system is quite bad, but I don’t know of any that are good. There was an article by an NYTimes reporter called Bruce Bawer some time ago about Scandinavian healthcare systems, and they (to my surprise) were quite appalling. Some hospitals couldn’t do injections because they didn’t have syringes!
R:
Clear. I don’t know that you and I are totally in opposition on this one. Certainly one of the factors driving a concern for school improvement in my district is the presence of charter schools. I would say the jury is still out on whether they have brought about a net gain. There are a few excellent examples, a few really horrendous experiences and the rest no better or worse than the public schools.
I think that the public dollars following the student does provide some things to think about–impact on special education (currently wrought with all kinds of disagreements between parents and schools)–particularly in some “niche” areas (eg: work with profoundly autistic children) that the public districts really have not been able to get their arms around.
But I wonder, for the benefit of the libertarians, what level of government control, supervision, quality assurance, etc. would you advocate for the expenditure of these public dollars. Would you place all decision-making power on the parents? Would parents who “get robbed” of a year’s education through some form of educational malpractice, or other chicanery have any recourse? Should the state continue to fund schools that provide some parental incentive but little educational value (the computer give-aways that SES providers have already tried in some cases)? Are there any situations that the state should not fund? Teaching of creationism? Teaching of anarchic principles aimed at the overthrough of the state? These are all things that would have to be worked out somehow.
The “guaranteed coverage under Medicaid” comment above illustrates the problem with government-run health care. How many people are aware that the typical Medicaid reimbursement rate (along with those of Medicare and Indian Health Service) is so low that physicians lose money on each office visit, unless additional procedures are needed? This is particularly true in primary care (family practice, obstetrics, pediatrics, internal medicine), because additional procedure are typically not needed. In some areas having large Medicare/Medicaid patient populations, physicians do not accept these patients, because they can’t afford it. The system only “works” if the percentage of government-dependent patients is not too high and all physicians in the specialty take their “fair share” of them. Decrease the reimbursement rates and patients will not have access, because office overhead (rent,staff,supplies,phones,records etc.) must be paid if physicians are to remain in business.
Not sure why you think I equate one medical procedure to the experience of a health care system, or what you even mean by the experience of a health care system. Laser eye surgery is simply one example of the free market influence on cost and quality. You held up the US health care system as an example of a free market failure in an attempt to discredit the assertion that the free market does a better job of providing just about everything than command and control systems do. Most reject the notion that the US healthcare system is an example of the free market. I am not aware of a health system that is free market based, only isolated cases such as laser eye surgery.
Regarding education system that is market based, the US college system, despite its critics does a pretty good job. Students can choose from community colleges, state schools and universities, private schools and universities (both religious and secular) and their government grants and loans are accepted at all institutions (although the student might not be!). Colleges that do poorly are chosen by fewer students or by students with lesser abilities. Colleges must improve if they with to attract more/better students. If they do improve, they can raise their fees. If not, they need to lower fees in order to attract students.
I don’t see the fact that many individuals choose not to leave an underperforming school is an indictment against choice. Many people stay in jobs, neighborhoods, colleges, relationships because they judge the cost to change to a better option higher than the benefit. Staying to try and improve a school, job, neighborhood, etc. that you have invested time into is often the right choice.
“Elective†is not the same as “emergency,†but it is non life-threatening. Bypass surgery is not elective, and is generally not an emergency procedure, but a hip replacement or laser eye surgery is elective. An elective procedure may improve your quality of life, but if you do not have the procedure, you will not die. Some procedures, such as a C-section, may be emergency, scheduled or elective, depending on the circumstances.
As for infant mortality rates, I have made no claims. I have only stated that I believe genetics plays a part in life expectancy. Still you have not answered if you agree with this assertion.
I don’t know which medical specialty you are referring to, but some specialties do have a shortage of providers which leads to long waits for service. Again, I don’t see this as a criticism of the free market, but as a criticism of a command and control system. How long is the wait for laser eye surgery?
Margo,
“Would you place all decision-making power on the parents? Would parents who “get robbed†of a year’s education through some form of educational malpractice, or other chicanery have any recourse?”
Most of it, yes. There’s absolutely no question that parents on average will be more concerned with the welfare of their children than the bureaucrats who infest the public school system.
As long as the state funds education, they should have some control – but the bias should be in favour of the parents.
As for recourse if you get robbed, what does the current system give you? Every day millions of children are robbed in precisely the manner you describe, but nothing changes.
Part of the problem, IMHO, is that the teachers are well suited to brainwash parents; they are mostly presentable, moderately articulate, full of confidence that they’re doing the Lord’s work, and supremely comfortable in their intelligence and wisdom. And, like car salesman, they do their proselytizing day in and day out.
What chance does a hapless parent have?
Anything extrinsic to the system; genes are just one factor. For instance, some Mexican candies are very high in lead. If Mexican children perform poorly in school because their parents’ culture unwittingly leads to lead poisoning (and Political Correctness leads to inadequate policing of the quality of imported foodstuffs), this is not the fault of the school.
Margo/Mom: You seem to be obsessively devoted to merely two statistics: infant mortality and longevity. If that bothers you insanely, fine. I don’t see the need to kill a housefly by dropping a 550 kT nuclear device on the city when a well-aimed flyswatter will do just fine.
Again, health care and education are hot topics of discussion all over the world, like it or not.
Also, the government is not your Personal Pampering Agency.