Comments on: The uses and abuses of tape http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/06/the-uses-and-abuses-of-tape/ Thinking and Linking by Joanne Jacobs Fri, 10 Feb 2012 04:51:22 +0000 hourly 1 By: Amy in Dallas http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/06/the-uses-and-abuses-of-tape/#comment-36806 Amy in Dallas Sat, 07 Jun 2008 12:11:23 +0000 http://joannejacobs.com/2008/06/05/the-uses-and-abuses-of-tape/#comment-36806 If I taught elementary, I'd have a treadmill in my room to work out restlessness! I teach high school, so I have a couch instead. If I taught elementary, I’d have a treadmill in my room to work out restlessness! I teach high school, so I have a couch instead.

]]> By: Therese http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/06/the-uses-and-abuses-of-tape/#comment-36805 Therese Fri, 06 Jun 2008 15:52:06 +0000 http://joannejacobs.com/2008/06/05/the-uses-and-abuses-of-tape/#comment-36805 I remember my extremely sweet, elderly, 1st grade teacher putting a large rubberband around the problem child in our class. We had those old time seats that were nailed to the floor. I don't remember anyone being traumatized by the incident. It was our second grade teacher that would put the bad kids behind the piano, make them stand in the garbage can, make kids eat their papers if they made a mistake, and regularly humiliated us, giving us all daily stomach aches before school - she was the one that all the parents kept trying to get rid of but couldn't seem to that really crossed the line. I remember my extremely sweet, elderly, 1st grade teacher putting a large rubberband around the problem child in our class. We had those old time seats that were nailed to the floor. I don’t remember anyone being traumatized by the incident. It was our second grade teacher that would put the bad kids behind the piano, make them stand in the garbage can, make kids eat their papers if they made a mistake, and regularly humiliated us, giving us all daily stomach aches before school – she was the one that all the parents kept trying to get rid of but couldn’t seem to that really crossed the line.

]]> By: NDC http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/06/the-uses-and-abuses-of-tape/#comment-36804 NDC Thu, 05 Jun 2008 22:20:06 +0000 http://joannejacobs.com/2008/06/05/the-uses-and-abuses-of-tape/#comment-36804 With institutional learning, some times the kids might have to sit quietly. Period. With institutional learning, some times the kids might have to sit quietly. Period.

]]> By: NDC http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/06/the-uses-and-abuses-of-tape/#comment-36803 NDC Thu, 05 Jun 2008 22:19:05 +0000 http://joannejacobs.com/2008/06/05/the-uses-and-abuses-of-tape/#comment-36803 I think a lot of times we all forget that we're not trying to design the perfect education for any one kid; we're working on a system that will serve almost all the kids at the same time. What would be a great solution for a parent to use with his or her kid is harder to pull off when you are instructing 20+ kids at the same time. And this may be why homeschooling is growing in popularity. I think a lot of times we all forget that we’re not trying to design the perfect education for any one kid; we’re working on a system that will serve almost all the kids at the same time.

What would be a great solution for a parent to use with his or her kid is harder to pull off when you are instructing 20+ kids at the same time.

And this may be why homeschooling is growing in popularity.

]]> By: NDC http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/06/the-uses-and-abuses-of-tape/#comment-36802 NDC Thu, 05 Jun 2008 22:09:29 +0000 http://joannejacobs.com/2008/06/05/the-uses-and-abuses-of-tape/#comment-36802 I'm not suggesting that the kid should just suffer with bad instruction, but instead that behaving is actually valuable and that not all misbehavior is caused by legitimate issues. I hated math in school. Had it been an option, I would have wandered around the room and done other stuff instead. My boredom wasn't an instructional issue though; it was just a matter of preference. Ideally, we could have made math interesting to me, but really all that had to happen was that I buckle down and learn it despite my boredom. I really don't think any kids should just have to endure parts of school frequently, but unless we go to a system based on one on one instruction, sometimes kids need to be expected to sit quietly and let others work even if they are bored or finished. A better system would give them something engaging and instructional to work on quietly instead of just sitting there and your recommendations for self advocacy are excellent, but when a kid gets up and does something else repeatedly without permission and despite verbal correction, it shouldn't be assumed that it was necessarily the instruction that was lacking. It might just have been a lack of self-discipline on the part of the kid, and self-discipline might have to be learned by exercising self-control with external reminders or negative consequences from adults rather than by changing the environment for the kid. But again, the consequences shouldn't involve tape. I’m not suggesting that the kid should just suffer with bad instruction, but instead that behaving is actually valuable and that not all misbehavior is caused by legitimate issues.

I hated math in school. Had it been an option, I would have wandered around the room and done other stuff instead. My boredom wasn’t an instructional issue though; it was just a matter of preference.

Ideally, we could have made math interesting to me, but really all that had to happen was that I buckle down and learn it despite my boredom.

I really don’t think any kids should just have to endure parts of school frequently, but unless we go to a system based on one on one instruction, sometimes kids need to be expected to sit quietly and let others work even if they are bored or finished.

A better system would give them something engaging and instructional to work on quietly instead of just sitting there and your recommendations for self advocacy are excellent, but when a kid gets up and does something else repeatedly without permission and despite verbal correction, it shouldn’t be assumed that it was necessarily the instruction that was lacking.

It might just have been a lack of self-discipline on the part of the kid, and self-discipline might have to be learned by exercising self-control with external reminders or negative consequences from adults rather than by changing the environment for the kid.

But again, the consequences shouldn’t involve tape.

]]> By: Mathew http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/06/the-uses-and-abuses-of-tape/#comment-36801 Mathew Thu, 05 Jun 2008 21:57:34 +0000 http://joannejacobs.com/2008/06/05/the-uses-and-abuses-of-tape/#comment-36801 In regards to what options the teacher would have, I suggest that teachers typically make the mistake of focusing on the symptom and not the cure. How about taking a look about the reasons why the student is wandering and why do we have to suggest that he has ADD when research suggests that every human has the need to get up and move around? <a href="http://tinyurl.com/6n89mw" rel="nofollow">Here are some alternatives.</a> In regards to what options the teacher would have, I suggest that teachers typically make the mistake of focusing on the symptom and not the cure. How about taking a look about the reasons why the student is wandering and why do we have to suggest that he has ADD when research suggests that every human has the need to get up and move around? Here are some alternatives.

]]> By: Margo/Mom http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/06/the-uses-and-abuses-of-tape/#comment-36800 Margo/Mom Thu, 05 Jun 2008 21:03:25 +0000 http://joannejacobs.com/2008/06/05/the-uses-and-abuses-of-tape/#comment-36800 NDC asks: But by third grade, Margo, shouldn’t the child also be able to sit still in his desk for limited parts of the school day? Are you suggesting that by third grade a bright kid with not enough to keep him challenged should have transcended the environment by learning to ignore the problem (and staying seated with nothing to do)? Or perhaps by diagnosing the problem and pointing out nicely to the teacher that he is bored and needs more challenge? Ditto the kid who is overwhelmed because he is not getting it? Or, by third grade a kid with ADHD knows all the tips and tricks to managing his problems (Excuse me, Ms. Teacher--I think I would have a better time sitting through class if I could have five minute activity breaks scattered throughout the day. Would that be all right with you?) Yes, in fact, there are kids who excel at following the rules and exhibiting good behavior, whether their needs are being well met or not. They are more likely to be girls than boys. If they are gifted or have learning challenges, these things are more likely to be undiagnosed. After all, they are behaving. NDC asks: But by third grade, Margo, shouldn’t the child also be able to sit still in his desk for limited parts of the school day?

Are you suggesting that by third grade a bright kid with not enough to keep him challenged should have transcended the environment by learning to ignore the problem (and staying seated with nothing to do)? Or perhaps by diagnosing the problem and pointing out nicely to the teacher that he is bored and needs more challenge? Ditto the kid who is overwhelmed because he is not getting it? Or, by third grade a kid with ADHD knows all the tips and tricks to managing his problems (Excuse me, Ms. Teacher–I think I would have a better time sitting through class if I could have five minute activity breaks scattered throughout the day. Would that be all right with you?)

Yes, in fact, there are kids who excel at following the rules and exhibiting good behavior, whether their needs are being well met or not. They are more likely to be girls than boys. If they are gifted or have learning challenges, these things are more likely to be undiagnosed. After all, they are behaving.

]]> By: NDC http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/06/the-uses-and-abuses-of-tape/#comment-36799 NDC Thu, 05 Jun 2008 19:47:56 +0000 http://joannejacobs.com/2008/06/05/the-uses-and-abuses-of-tape/#comment-36799 Not that taping anyone to a chair is a good practice. Not that taping anyone to a chair is a good practice.

]]> By: NDC http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/06/the-uses-and-abuses-of-tape/#comment-36798 NDC Thu, 05 Jun 2008 19:37:49 +0000 http://joannejacobs.com/2008/06/05/the-uses-and-abuses-of-tape/#comment-36798 But by third grade, Margo, shouldn't the child also be able to sit still in his desk for limited parts of the school day? Sure there are some kids for whom it's beyond their ability, but staying in your seat when you are told to is a matter of learning self control and behaving appropriately too. Misbehavior isn't always about legitimate root causes. But by third grade, Margo, shouldn’t the child also be able to sit still in his desk for limited parts of the school day?

Sure there are some kids for whom it’s beyond their ability, but staying in your seat when you are told to is a matter of learning self control and behaving appropriately too. Misbehavior isn’t always about legitimate root causes.

]]> By: Margo/Mom http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/06/the-uses-and-abuses-of-tape/#comment-36797 Margo/Mom Thu, 05 Jun 2008 19:14:45 +0000 http://joannejacobs.com/2008/06/05/the-uses-and-abuses-of-tape/#comment-36797 Half: To be effective, the first question to ask is why was the kid getting out of his chair? Kids self report is that he was bored. Could be (kids don't always possess a whole lot of self-insight into motives, particularly impulsive kids). So one might check into what was going on. Is this one of those kids who always finishes the assignment and then moves on to find other things to do? That calls for one set of solutions (identifying acceptable "seat" occupations that contribute to learning, perhaps). Is the kid zoning out because he is overwhelmed by the work? This calls for another set of solutions (perhaps presenting smaller assignments, perhaps more intensive support, double-checking understanding before launching independent work, partnering, etc). Is the kid checking the limits of what is allowable (more likely to occur during the early part of the year)? This calls for setting consequences to establish that the limits are firm (recess with the teacher, quiet lunch, extra writing assignment, etc). Does he have some physical proclivity for movement (ADHD?) or other difficulty with just sitting? Maybe additional activity needs to be built into his day, maybe a sandbag sort of thing to hold across his lap as a reminder, or some physical release available (chewing gum, a stress release ball). As far as I know, none of these break any rules that I have ever seen. Or the teacher could just keep on telling him, with limited results until s/he loses their cool and pulls out the masking tape in desperation. Half: To be effective, the first question to ask is why was the kid getting out of his chair? Kids self report is that he was bored. Could be (kids don’t always possess a whole lot of self-insight into motives, particularly impulsive kids). So one might check into what was going on. Is this one of those kids who always finishes the assignment and then moves on to find other things to do? That calls for one set of solutions (identifying acceptable “seat” occupations that contribute to learning, perhaps). Is the kid zoning out because he is overwhelmed by the work? This calls for another set of solutions (perhaps presenting smaller assignments, perhaps more intensive support, double-checking understanding before launching independent work, partnering, etc). Is the kid checking the limits of what is allowable (more likely to occur during the early part of the year)? This calls for setting consequences to establish that the limits are firm (recess with the teacher, quiet lunch, extra writing assignment, etc). Does he have some physical proclivity for movement (ADHD?) or other difficulty with just sitting? Maybe additional activity needs to be built into his day, maybe a sandbag sort of thing to hold across his lap as a reminder, or some physical release available (chewing gum, a stress release ball). As far as I know, none of these break any rules that I have ever seen.

Or the teacher could just keep on telling him, with limited results until s/he loses their cool and pulls out the masking tape in desperation.

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