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	<title>Comments on: Not dead yet</title>
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	<description>Thinking and Linking by Joanne Jacobs</description>
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		<title>By: Teachers defend death hoax at Joanne Jacobs</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/05/not-dead-yet/#comment-36686</link>
		<dc:creator>Teachers defend death hoax at Joanne Jacobs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 19:10:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2008/05/31/not-dead-yet/#comment-36686</guid>
		<description>[...] school had modified a program called Every 15 Minutes. (Contrary to what I wrote here, this was not created by Mothers Against Drunk Driving.) Normally, the undead are pulled out of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] school had modified a program called Every 15 Minutes. (Contrary to what I wrote here, this was not created by Mothers Against Drunk Driving.) Normally, the undead are pulled out of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Aubrey</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/05/not-dead-yet/#comment-36685</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Aubrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2008 15:24:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2008/05/31/not-dead-yet/#comment-36685</guid>
		<description>Some years ago, in a nearby small town, a car full of kids hit a tree. The results were so bad that some of the first responders required counseling.
There were spectators on the scene immediately, as the accident was downtown.  The car had been doing 100mph+ in a 25mph zone and hit a big oak in the park.
Among the spectators was a judge who lived nearby, and a bunch of teenagers.
A year later, the judge remarked he was seeing some of the spectator kids in front of him for drunk driving.

The late John Campbell, editor of Analog Science Fact and Fiction, was a font of provocative ideas.  One was to legalize drugs.  His idea was that kids are evolving away from listening to their parents. In earlier days, a kid who ignored parental advice was not likely to survive the day.  &quot;Who says I can&#039;t go look at the sabre-tooth tiger!&quot;

With easily available hard drugs, we have the parents and the adult world in general advising against them.  Thus separating the listeners from the non-listeners before the latter have time to breed.

Campbell&#039;s idea, and the judge&#039;s observation both address that some people are incapable of learning, to their and our detriment.  And there&#039;s nothing you can do about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some years ago, in a nearby small town, a car full of kids hit a tree. The results were so bad that some of the first responders required counseling.<br />
There were spectators on the scene immediately, as the accident was downtown.  The car had been doing 100mph+ in a 25mph zone and hit a big oak in the park.<br />
Among the spectators was a judge who lived nearby, and a bunch of teenagers.<br />
A year later, the judge remarked he was seeing some of the spectator kids in front of him for drunk driving.</p>
<p>The late John Campbell, editor of Analog Science Fact and Fiction, was a font of provocative ideas.  One was to legalize drugs.  His idea was that kids are evolving away from listening to their parents. In earlier days, a kid who ignored parental advice was not likely to survive the day.  &#8220;Who says I can&#8217;t go look at the sabre-tooth tiger!&#8221;</p>
<p>With easily available hard drugs, we have the parents and the adult world in general advising against them.  Thus separating the listeners from the non-listeners before the latter have time to breed.</p>
<p>Campbell&#8217;s idea, and the judge&#8217;s observation both address that some people are incapable of learning, to their and our detriment.  And there&#8217;s nothing you can do about it.</p>
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		<title>By: chartermom</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/05/not-dead-yet/#comment-36684</link>
		<dc:creator>chartermom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jun 2008 21:09:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2008/05/31/not-dead-yet/#comment-36684</guid>
		<description>In what NDC and jill describes it sounds like all the students know that what is being done is just drama and that noone has died.  They are just asked to think about the &quot;what if&quot;.  However in reading the article it sounds like the group in SD took the idea a step farther and let the kids think a friend had died.

The drama sounds fine.  However actually letting kids think that someone has died is just cruel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In what NDC and jill describes it sounds like all the students know that what is being done is just drama and that noone has died.  They are just asked to think about the &#8220;what if&#8221;.  However in reading the article it sounds like the group in SD took the idea a step farther and let the kids think a friend had died.</p>
<p>The drama sounds fine.  However actually letting kids think that someone has died is just cruel.</p>
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		<title>By: jill</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/05/not-dead-yet/#comment-36683</link>
		<dc:creator>jill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jun 2008 19:51:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2008/05/31/not-dead-yet/#comment-36683</guid>
		<description>I have been a part of a reenactment like this twice - the school I used to teach at called it &quot;Every 15 Minutes.&quot; A group of students apply to participate, are selected by a committee and are briefed on what is to occur. Parents even get involved on the &quot;mock accident.&quot; On the first day, the kids are brought out to a mock crash site set up in front of the school - the city fire department, police department, and ambulance services are all involved. They get the kids out of the wreckage and take several to the hospital, where they are put through a mock triage, all with cameras rolling. One kid is hauled off to jail, and the parents are called.

Every 15 minutes throughout the school day, a heartbeat comes on the intercom and then goes to flatline. A pre-selected student is summoned out of class by &quot;the grim reaper,&quot; their face is painted white, and they are not allowed to talk to anyone else for the rest of the school day. That night, the students are taken off-site to a location unknown by their family and are counseled and talk about what it would be like to be one of those kids who was actually killed by a drunk driver. They even write mock &quot;last words&quot; to their families. My daughter was one of those kids, and she found it to be a very emotional but effective night.

The next day there is a school assembly (all juniors and seniors only) where the students who were taken off campus come back and share what they learned. A couple of guest speakers are brought in who have first hand experience about losing a loved one to a drunk driver. It is a very emotionally taxing, but effective program. I participated as a teacher and a parent. I know it made a difference for my daughter, and for many of my students as well. This program can be done right and done effectively. We aren&#039;t lying to our kids - we are showing them a controlled reality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been a part of a reenactment like this twice &#8211; the school I used to teach at called it &#8220;Every 15 Minutes.&#8221; A group of students apply to participate, are selected by a committee and are briefed on what is to occur. Parents even get involved on the &#8220;mock accident.&#8221; On the first day, the kids are brought out to a mock crash site set up in front of the school &#8211; the city fire department, police department, and ambulance services are all involved. They get the kids out of the wreckage and take several to the hospital, where they are put through a mock triage, all with cameras rolling. One kid is hauled off to jail, and the parents are called.</p>
<p>Every 15 minutes throughout the school day, a heartbeat comes on the intercom and then goes to flatline. A pre-selected student is summoned out of class by &#8220;the grim reaper,&#8221; their face is painted white, and they are not allowed to talk to anyone else for the rest of the school day. That night, the students are taken off-site to a location unknown by their family and are counseled and talk about what it would be like to be one of those kids who was actually killed by a drunk driver. They even write mock &#8220;last words&#8221; to their families. My daughter was one of those kids, and she found it to be a very emotional but effective night.</p>
<p>The next day there is a school assembly (all juniors and seniors only) where the students who were taken off campus come back and share what they learned. A couple of guest speakers are brought in who have first hand experience about losing a loved one to a drunk driver. It is a very emotionally taxing, but effective program. I participated as a teacher and a parent. I know it made a difference for my daughter, and for many of my students as well. This program can be done right and done effectively. We aren&#8217;t lying to our kids &#8211; we are showing them a controlled reality.</p>
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		<title>By: NDC</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/05/not-dead-yet/#comment-36682</link>
		<dc:creator>NDC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jun 2008 19:30:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2008/05/31/not-dead-yet/#comment-36682</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure that what&#039;s being described here is the same as what I&#039;ve seen done, but we&#039;re had what are referred, I think, as Ghost Outs for the same reason done by SADD, the student organization for MADD.

There isn&#039;t any real trickery involved; it&#039;s just theater. Death figures come and get the kids out of class; I think maybe make up is applied, and then later in the day there&#039;s a staged car wreck somewhere on campus and an assembly.

It triggers much more &quot;what if&quot; kind of thinking, rather than an actual belief that anyone has died.

Kids like drama, so they like it. I don&#039;t know if it makes them any less likely to drive drunk or get in cars with drunk drivers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure that what&#8217;s being described here is the same as what I&#8217;ve seen done, but we&#8217;re had what are referred, I think, as Ghost Outs for the same reason done by SADD, the student organization for MADD.</p>
<p>There isn&#8217;t any real trickery involved; it&#8217;s just theater. Death figures come and get the kids out of class; I think maybe make up is applied, and then later in the day there&#8217;s a staged car wreck somewhere on campus and an assembly.</p>
<p>It triggers much more &#8220;what if&#8221; kind of thinking, rather than an actual belief that anyone has died.</p>
<p>Kids like drama, so they like it. I don&#8217;t know if it makes them any less likely to drive drunk or get in cars with drunk drivers.</p>
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		<title>By: Sister Howitzer</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/05/not-dead-yet/#comment-36681</link>
		<dc:creator>Sister Howitzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jun 2008 16:21:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2008/05/31/not-dead-yet/#comment-36681</guid>
		<description>&quot;He cited a simple statistic; i.e., that 1/3 of the people in the class would be killed in a car accident.&quot;

That officer was full of it.  The earliest year I could find &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.disastercenter.com/traffic/Fatality.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;data&lt;/a&gt;  for was 1966:
50,894 fatalities
196,560,000 US population
25.89/100,000 fatality rate

One year odds is the reciprocal: 196,560,000/50,894=3862.14, or about 1 chance in 3862 of dying in a car accident each year.

To find lifetime odds, you divide the one year odds by life expectancy- which was approximately 70 in 1966:  3862/70=55.18.  So in 1966 the lifetime odds of dying in a motor vehicle accident was about 1 in 55.
That compares to a lifetime odds of 1 in 84 for the year 2004.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;He cited a simple statistic; i.e., that 1/3 of the people in the class would be killed in a car accident.&#8221;</p>
<p>That officer was full of it.  The earliest year I could find <a href="http://www.disastercenter.com/traffic/Fatality.html" rel="nofollow">data</a>  for was 1966:<br />
50,894 fatalities<br />
196,560,000 US population<br />
25.89/100,000 fatality rate</p>
<p>One year odds is the reciprocal: 196,560,000/50,894=3862.14, or about 1 chance in 3862 of dying in a car accident each year.</p>
<p>To find lifetime odds, you divide the one year odds by life expectancy- which was approximately 70 in 1966:  3862/70=55.18.  So in 1966 the lifetime odds of dying in a motor vehicle accident was about 1 in 55.<br />
That compares to a lifetime odds of 1 in 84 for the year 2004.</p>
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		<title>By: TMA</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/05/not-dead-yet/#comment-36680</link>
		<dc:creator>TMA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jun 2008 15:36:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2008/05/31/not-dead-yet/#comment-36680</guid>
		<description>While I totally disapprove of this re-enactment, the comments here clearly show that a well-placed lie can be an effective teaching tool.

I&#039;m referring to the &quot;simple statistic&quot; B.G. above heard in his class in the 1960s -- &quot;that 1/3 of the people in the class would be killed in a car accident.&quot;

For forty years now, he&#039;s remembered it, it has been made even more powerful by his personal experience, and undoubtably it has made him a safer driver. Yet it&#039;s utterly false!

Admittedly, I&#039;m working on modern statistics,
see: http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

 and cars are a lot safer now than they were in the 1960s.  But  currently (1994-2006 stats), about 40 to 43 thousand people die (quite consistently) each year in  automobile accidents, something less than 15 per 100,000 people.  Even over a lifetime -- even over 100 years -- the chance of a single person dying when exposed to an annual  0.015%
chance of being in a fatal accident -- is less than 2%. It&#039;s too high, for sure -- but nowhere near one in three.

We could increase a little by only looking at registered drivers -- everyone in that class was presumably on their way to becoming a driver --  but the annual figure there is 22 per 100,000, not the enormous increase you&#039;d need to justify this figure (and my crude use of 100 years of exposure is even more of an overestimate).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I totally disapprove of this re-enactment, the comments here clearly show that a well-placed lie can be an effective teaching tool.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m referring to the &#8220;simple statistic&#8221; B.G. above heard in his class in the 1960s &#8212; &#8220;that 1/3 of the people in the class would be killed in a car accident.&#8221;</p>
<p>For forty years now, he&#8217;s remembered it, it has been made even more powerful by his personal experience, and undoubtably it has made him a safer driver. Yet it&#8217;s utterly false!</p>
<p>Admittedly, I&#8217;m working on modern statistics,<br />
see: <a href="http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx</a></p>
<p> and cars are a lot safer now than they were in the 1960s.  But  currently (1994-2006 stats), about 40 to 43 thousand people die (quite consistently) each year in  automobile accidents, something less than 15 per 100,000 people.  Even over a lifetime &#8212; even over 100 years &#8212; the chance of a single person dying when exposed to an annual  0.015%<br />
chance of being in a fatal accident &#8212; is less than 2%. It&#8217;s too high, for sure &#8212; but nowhere near one in three.</p>
<p>We could increase a little by only looking at registered drivers &#8212; everyone in that class was presumably on their way to becoming a driver &#8212;  but the annual figure there is 22 per 100,000, not the enormous increase you&#8217;d need to justify this figure (and my crude use of 100 years of exposure is even more of an overestimate).</p>
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		<title>By: Kim</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/05/not-dead-yet/#comment-36679</link>
		<dc:creator>Kim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jun 2008 15:15:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2008/05/31/not-dead-yet/#comment-36679</guid>
		<description>Mike is right.  Lie to kids and they won&#039;t take you seriously.  We drum this into our children with the boy who cried wolf story--you&#039;d think adults wouldn&#039;t forget it.  Barry, I also think that officer was mistaken if not lying.  Maybe 1/3 would be in a car accident, but to say that 1/3 would die in a car accident is patently false.

If you are honest with your children, let them actually experience the consequences of their actions growing up, and give them as much actual responsibility as they can handle, you&#039;re likely to get great adults.  Though not every kid turns out great even with the best parenting and we also need to recognize that kids have free will.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike is right.  Lie to kids and they won&#8217;t take you seriously.  We drum this into our children with the boy who cried wolf story&#8211;you&#8217;d think adults wouldn&#8217;t forget it.  Barry, I also think that officer was mistaken if not lying.  Maybe 1/3 would be in a car accident, but to say that 1/3 would die in a car accident is patently false.</p>
<p>If you are honest with your children, let them actually experience the consequences of their actions growing up, and give them as much actual responsibility as they can handle, you&#8217;re likely to get great adults.  Though not every kid turns out great even with the best parenting and we also need to recognize that kids have free will.</p>
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		<title>By: SuperSub</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/05/not-dead-yet/#comment-36678</link>
		<dc:creator>SuperSub</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jun 2008 14:08:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2008/05/31/not-dead-yet/#comment-36678</guid>
		<description>The only way to deal effectively with drunk drivers is to throw the book at them. Cars are just as, if not more, deadly than loaded guns when they&#039;re in the hands of drunk drivers.
I&#039;ve lost friends due to drunk driving and seen drunk drivers come back again and again because its treated simply as a traffic infraction.
That being said, I&#039;m reminded of a funny line from House (paraphrased because I can&#039;t remember it exactly)-
&quot;I used to drive home drunk, but some mothers got mad-d...&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only way to deal effectively with drunk drivers is to throw the book at them. Cars are just as, if not more, deadly than loaded guns when they&#8217;re in the hands of drunk drivers.<br />
I&#8217;ve lost friends due to drunk driving and seen drunk drivers come back again and again because its treated simply as a traffic infraction.<br />
That being said, I&#8217;m reminded of a funny line from House (paraphrased because I can&#8217;t remember it exactly)-<br />
&#8220;I used to drive home drunk, but some mothers got mad-d&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Barry Garelick</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2008/05/not-dead-yet/#comment-36677</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry Garelick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jun 2008 11:16:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2008/05/31/not-dead-yet/#comment-36677</guid>
		<description>&lt;I&gt;Kids that age think theyâ€™re going to live forever.&lt;/I&gt;

I recall a visit that a police officer made to our driver training class. This was in mid-60&#039;s.  He cited a simple statistic; i.e., that 1/3 of the people in the class would be killed in a car accident.  That could mean one of the two people sitting to either side of you, or it could mean you  I know all of you are thinking &#039;It doesn&#039;t mean me&#039;. &quot;

This stuck with me for many years.  Particularly when as I grew older I learned of friends who had been killed in auto accidents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Kids that age think theyâ€™re going to live forever.</i></p>
<p>I recall a visit that a police officer made to our driver training class. This was in mid-60&#8242;s.  He cited a simple statistic; i.e., that 1/3 of the people in the class would be killed in a car accident.  That could mean one of the two people sitting to either side of you, or it could mean you  I know all of you are thinking &#8216;It doesn&#8217;t mean me&#8217;. &#8221;</p>
<p>This stuck with me for many years.  Particularly when as I grew older I learned of friends who had been killed in auto accidents.</p>
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