Finally, about school visitations. I do not know where you live, but I am mortified they did not let you visit a classroom or interview a teacher before the school year began. I am sorry you had that experience.

I never said I had that experience, that I couldn’t visit a classroom or get an interview with a teacher (I don’t have personal experience, and I’ve heard mixed things here). What I said was that I can’t just pop in for a visit whenever I want to monitor quality (and what good would it do anyway since I have no choice?) and that I can’t interview a teacher first and then reject him if I don’t think he’s any good. That’s my complaint. No choice!

As it is, who knows if you can or can’t just pop into a classroom whenever you want to monitor quality. You said you don’t know since you haven’t tried. And you also tell us that anecdotals from others been mixed! Seems to me some schools probably have an open door policy, and some schools don’t. Maybe I’m wrong about that, but it seems neither of us truly knows. Anyway, if you desire choice that badly, you should run for chancellor of schools, or a similar bureaucratic position! Fix ‘em up! I’m sure it’s as easy to do as all that.

I suspect that fundamentally we may just differ on how public education ought to work in terms of student behavior. I don’t think that kids who are unable or unwilling to conduct themselves in a non-disruptive manner should be the regular education teacher’s issue to deal with beyond fairly limited, age appropriate strategies.

I’m not sure how these students ought to be handled: a special education emotional or behavior disorder placement at an alternative school; investing in social services to work with kids to get them school ready when their parents and the school can’t; or if we’re just heartless as say, “we’ve offered you a service but you are unable to take advantage at the present time. Try again next year.”

But teaching the other kids well is enough of a job for the classroom teacher that extensive behavior modification for particular students shouldn’t be on his or her agenda.

I certainly don’t mean that elementary schools should have some kind of goofy three-small-mistakes-and-you’re-kicked-out-forever policies, just that even as an eight year old, a kid can actually be ruining the education of other students and that functional classes are an expensive enough commodity that we shouldn’t let that happen. So even though a suspension shouldn’t be the first consequence, at some point, it’s not about the suspended kid as much as it’s about the other kids.

I agree that schools can seem like they are attacking kids and parents a lot more than they should and that everyone who works at a school should try to diminish that as much as they can. But ultimately how the school handles discipline has to be about the events that occurred, and how handling the problem is going to make the mom feel, while a worthy consideration, can’t ever take priority over getting the kid to stop doing it or establishing that the behavior isn’t acceptable.

I think the same should be true for parents who find fault with something a teacher has done. There’s nothing to be gained by attacking the teacher, but that raising issues about events or procedures is completely fair game. Certainly, the way something is handled in all cases determines a lot about the results your are going to get.

Your experience has been more that schools seek to blame and hold parents responsible for things they can’t control and my runs more toward classroom teachers being held responsible for anything that goes wrong.

Certainly, the reality is probably that real responsibility should be shared, and in successful situation it is, but God help you when things go wrong.

As far as calling parents at work, I know I’ve never done it for the reasons that you’ve described. When I’ve called people at work it was because I couldn’t reach them at home and I was required to contact them. I suppose some teachers could view it as a power trip, but I’d be more likely to believe it had to do with when the teacher was trying to place the call.

As far as the force outs, looking at graduation rates as part of NCLB compliance may force schools to do better since those kids not graduating counts against the school’s data. The NCLB interest in subgroup performance for special education also ought to help a lot as well. NCLB gets blamed for almost everything wrong today, but it had the potential to do a lot of good if schools would just implement the right policies to achieve it.

I also don’t want you to think that I favor throwing away a lot of kids because of minor misbehavior, but I don’t think that schools can replace good parenting at any level of the socio-economic spectrum,

Thanks for being willing to listen. One of my push-outs was a single parent, raised by a single parent. Her single parent was a dad, employed full time. I forget what happened to her mom–she might have died. The district was notoriously “above” dealing with pregnant teenagers. She missed some days when the baby had chicken pox and got no slack–it became easier to drop out and get a GED. She was a bright kid and actually managed to finish up in about a year. She was a good story.

Many more had histories of being relegated to special education for disabilities that no one ever explained to them. Mostly they just sort of thought that they were dumb (that’s a paraphrase of what a student told me). Around ninth grade it got to be really clear that they were not likely to graduate and there were more enjoyable things available (having boyfriends and having babies). And so they left. But there were also others who were not identified as “special ed,” and would have to pass what was then an 8th grade test (given in 9th grade) in order to graduate. And the schools were then beginning to be graded on how many kids passed. So, I had kids who were “counseled” that it might be easier for them to “just get a GED.” No one was explaining to them the the GED was created to test all 4 years of high school content and the graduation test was set at a lower level. So, I had kids showing up to “take the test,” who got really frustrated when we had to explain to them that they could take the practice test, but that their entry scores showed that they needed basic work in reading and math before they would be close to ready to pass.

Regarding families–I really haven’t known many that didn’t want really good things for their kids. I have seen poorly disciplined kids whose parents made choices that I would never agree with for my own children. This is true not only in low income families that I have worked with but also (and sometimes more so) in upper middle class families. There are some differences. When you are poor and your kid misbehaves many people think lots of bad things about you–from you don’t care about discipline all the way up to you are a crack ho on welfare. When you are a stay at home junior league mom, they wouldn’t dare.

I think that lots of the things that schools/teachers do are consistent with an honest belief that if their students come from the wrong side of the tracks their parents don’t care as much, are less smart, value education less. Some of the Ruby Payne work reinforces this. So, if this is your perspective, it makes sense to call a parent at work in the middle of the day. Not because the student’s behavior is an emergency, but because it helps to “up the ante” and “get the attention” of someone that they think doesn’t care enough. It makes sense to suspend a second or third grader, not because that is an appropriate way to teach a child of that age a different behavior, but because the teacher believes that the parent hasn’t been doing their job to train the child–and now they are going to “force the issue” by making a huge and non-negotiable demand on the parent.

Parents also see things within the school from a different perspective. They know how the phone gets answered (friendly or accusatory?)and whether messages are returned in a timely fashion. The see whether the teachers and principal work well together, if the teachers are a team or merely “independent contractors sharing a parking lot.” They know if people throughout the district talk to one another (Does special ed relate well to regular ed? Do the teachers know the lunch ladies? Are substitutes supported or on their own?) And they may have a clue about whether their kid’s teacher is having problems with one kid or many. So they may at times be right when they suspect that the problem does not begin and end with their kid.

But when a parent gets a call demanding that they either come get their kid, or keep them home tomorrow, it really doesn’t matter who you are. That is an attack, and it feels like one. I would also add, as a parent, that while I will deal with my child regarding their at-school behavior, I would consider it irresponsible to not also deal with the adults at school regarding theirs.

I do see my students’ behavior as a reflection of parental expectation and I’ve seen differences at the different places where I’ve taught or even within academic levels at the same school.

And in my own family, I know that my parents regarded my own behavior or misbehavior as a reflection on them, so the idea that how I acted at school was simply going to be regarded as being the teacher’s job, as opposed to my own job or my parents’ responsibility is just very strange to me.

What does a teacher phone call about misbehavior look like from the perspective you are trying to share?

Please describe some of the circumstances of the “push outs.” That’s kind of a new one for me as well.

I have a background (degree) in education, have taught in public schools a bit (substitute teaching and GED classes–working with “push outs”). But as a licensed social worker I have many years experience working with parents and their chidren in the (primarily low-income) community. I can tell you, it looks very different from the parent side.

I do not call attention to it when it happens but I will acknowledge it with the child after the period is over. If the curse is audible enough for most kids to hear then i’ll throw out a comment like, “I don’t speak that way to any of you, so don’t use it with me.” Most, if not all, kids apologize and we move on.

One student used the word “douchebag” today as in “Holy Douchebag.” His mother is a nurse so I leaned over to him and asked him if he knew what it meant. He didn’t. I asked him to ask his mother if it is an appropriate word for school and his response was, “If you’re asking me to ask her then it’s a bad idea.”

I think you have a much greater sense of what the schools and school personnel can accomplish than I do when it comes to student misbehavior that the parents aren’t helping to extinguish, as in the example from the parent call about the student cussing on the playground.

What is your background in this area?

I would say that the adults that are charged with the oversight of that playground have considerable responsibility for setting a tone and maintaining a civil (or not) atmosphere on that playground. The same would be true for the hallways and classrooms.

I am not much for duelling systems of morality, and my experience has been that there are not enormous differences between the moral and ethical systems of the adults in and the adults out of schools. But there are a lot of skill deficits, which are certainly frustrating, and blaming parents for not providing enough support, or for teaching disrespect–particularly when this is based far more on supposition than any time spent actually observing at-home interactions–can provide a handy scapegoat. It just doesn’t help anyone solve the problem.

Surely you acknowledge that as your child’s parent, you really do have more ability to influence his or her behavior than any other adult, right?

Are you suggesting that another adult who sees your child for 180 or so days a year for one year, maybe not even all day, has more influence over the moral and ethical decisions that your child is making from day to day?

“…these children will change childless people’s bedpans in their old age, fund our nation’s Social Security, fight our future wars, etc.”

I think we all know that your comment was a backhanded condemnation of me and others like me without children. Your quote continues on to imply we childless folks are not contributing to the future of this country as much are people with children are because we have not produced offspring to carry on in our absence. I’ll thank you to not make such judgements about me. That comment also serves as an example of your personal disrespect for others who are not like you, including me.

So I suppose I am not rude now, as I have given you the citation you were seeking.

I do not enjoy calling people out in such a public forum, but you crossed a personal line with that a remark.

It’s been lovely dancing with you, but I must run. Evidently, I have a gravy train to catch. I wish you and your family all the best. I truly do. Now, where IS that damn train?