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	<title>Comments on: Wrong answers</title>
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	<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/11/wrong-answers/</link>
	<description>Free-linking and thinking on education by Joanne Jacobs</description>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/11/wrong-answers/comment-page-1/#comment-63694</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 07:22:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/11/17/wrong-answers/#comment-63694</guid>
		<description>Ragnarok,
I understand that you think I&#039;m missing your point -- that is what worries me.    My point is that there is a need for far less triage (streaming) than currently occurs.   With classroom structure that works, the strong student can and will excel ... but the weaker student doesn&#039;t have to be denied access.   Moreover with good teaching and support, that weaker student can reach objective measures of competency.  (even as that stronger student sails even higher)

Access doesn&#039;t mean that all students are consigned to move as a convoy at the speed of the slowest student.  Quite the opposite, especially with decent differentiation and strong professional support.    

Sister Howitzer .. I absolutely did make up that number -- debated whether to include the disclaimer  in my earlier not that I don&#039;t have accurate stats for the Middle Ages, despite reading Tuchman&#039;s Distant Mirror long ago: 1 in 20 may even be generous.    But you did peg the argument correctly: it&#039;s very hard to learn what you&#039;re not taught.  Many skills, like reading, are broadly accessible to students -- not just the upper half.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ragnarok,<br />
I understand that you think I&#8217;m missing your point &#8212; that is what worries me.    My point is that there is a need for far less triage (streaming) than currently occurs.   With classroom structure that works, the strong student can and will excel &#8230; but the weaker student doesn&#8217;t have to be denied access.   Moreover with good teaching and support, that weaker student can reach objective measures of competency.  (even as that stronger student sails even higher)</p>
<p>Access doesn&#8217;t mean that all students are consigned to move as a convoy at the speed of the slowest student.  Quite the opposite, especially with decent differentiation and strong professional support.    </p>
<p>Sister Howitzer .. I absolutely did make up that number &#8212; debated whether to include the disclaimer  in my earlier not that I don&#8217;t have accurate stats for the Middle Ages, despite reading Tuchman&#8217;s Distant Mirror long ago: 1 in 20 may even be generous.    But you did peg the argument correctly: it&#8217;s very hard to learn what you&#8217;re not taught.  Many skills, like reading, are broadly accessible to students &#8212; not just the upper half.</p>
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		<title>By: Ragnarok</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/11/wrong-answers/comment-page-1/#comment-63686</link>
		<dc:creator>Ragnarok</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 04:30:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/11/17/wrong-answers/#comment-63686</guid>
		<description>Chris,

I think you&#039;re missing my point.  

What&#039;s important is the gap between the high-IQ and low-IQ students, not the difference between the stuff being taught today and the stuff that was taught a hundred years ago.

In a world with limited resources, triage is a necessity.  (Streaming is more accurate than triage because it allows for more paths, btw).

You can give a low-IQ student the best coaching possible, but he&#039;ll still do worse than a high-IQ student, mutatis mutandis.  That&#039;s nature - ain&#039;t good, ain&#039;t bad, it just &lt;b&gt;is&lt;/b&gt;.

There is one exception to my thesis that high-IQ students will do better than low-IQ students; in ed-school circles, the reverse is immutably true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris,</p>
<p>I think you&#8217;re missing my point.  </p>
<p>What&#8217;s important is the gap between the high-IQ and low-IQ students, not the difference between the stuff being taught today and the stuff that was taught a hundred years ago.</p>
<p>In a world with limited resources, triage is a necessity.  (Streaming is more accurate than triage because it allows for more paths, btw).</p>
<p>You can give a low-IQ student the best coaching possible, but he&#8217;ll still do worse than a high-IQ student, mutatis mutandis.  That&#8217;s nature &#8211; ain&#8217;t good, ain&#8217;t bad, it just <b>is</b>.</p>
<p>There is one exception to my thesis that high-IQ students will do better than low-IQ students; in ed-school circles, the reverse is immutably true.</p>
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		<title>By: JuliaK</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/11/wrong-answers/comment-page-1/#comment-63677</link>
		<dc:creator>JuliaK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 02:06:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/11/17/wrong-answers/#comment-63677</guid>
		<description>The article concerns the UK, not the US.  It outlines proposed changes to the UK math curriculum, to track students into an academic or a &quot;fundamental&quot; math stream.  The argument seems to be, if a child will do poorly on the math exam given at the ages 14-16, why not teach them &quot;fundamental&quot; math instead?

The trouble, for me, is the sorting of children into academic and non-academic streams.  I think the middle class children, and upper class children, will not be sorted downwards, because they&#039;re the ones most likely to bolt the public system.  It may be harder for the children of working class parents to persevere through to university, but I don&#039;t think that they should be denied the chance to learn.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The article concerns the UK, not the US.  It outlines proposed changes to the UK math curriculum, to track students into an academic or a &#8220;fundamental&#8221; math stream.  The argument seems to be, if a child will do poorly on the math exam given at the ages 14-16, why not teach them &#8220;fundamental&#8221; math instead?</p>
<p>The trouble, for me, is the sorting of children into academic and non-academic streams.  I think the middle class children, and upper class children, will not be sorted downwards, because they&#8217;re the ones most likely to bolt the public system.  It may be harder for the children of working class parents to persevere through to university, but I don&#8217;t think that they should be denied the chance to learn.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/11/wrong-answers/comment-page-1/#comment-63676</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 01:55:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/11/17/wrong-answers/#comment-63676</guid>
		<description>Can some us admit fear that whole classrooms of students of wide-ranging abilities are going to be slowed down to the least common denominator?  

Without requiring some students to spend potentially large amounts of time outside of class, the only way to accomodate a wide variety of pacing levels would be to reduce the amount of material covered--which may be okay but then the superfluous material becomes enrichment for the fastered-pacing students and aren&#039;t we right back where we were before?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can some us admit fear that whole classrooms of students of wide-ranging abilities are going to be slowed down to the least common denominator?  </p>
<p>Without requiring some students to spend potentially large amounts of time outside of class, the only way to accomodate a wide variety of pacing levels would be to reduce the amount of material covered&#8211;which may be okay but then the superfluous material becomes enrichment for the fastered-pacing students and aren&#8217;t we right back where we were before?</p>
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		<title>By: Zuzuzpetals</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/11/wrong-answers/comment-page-1/#comment-63663</link>
		<dc:creator>Zuzuzpetals</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:14:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/11/17/wrong-answers/#comment-63663</guid>
		<description>RN - I am fully aware of the connotative charge words like &quot;leftist&quot; and &quot;ideologue&quot; carry as well as &quot;indoctrination.&quot;  I&#039;m not sure I&#039;m understanding your penchant for self-flagellation, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RN &#8211; I am fully aware of the connotative charge words like &#8220;leftist&#8221; and &#8220;ideologue&#8221; carry as well as &#8220;indoctrination.&#8221;  I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;m understanding your penchant for self-flagellation, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Sister Howitzer</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/11/wrong-answers/comment-page-1/#comment-63657</link>
		<dc:creator>Sister Howitzer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 21:33:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/11/17/wrong-answers/#comment-63657</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Long ago perhaps only the top 5% of people could read&lt;/i&gt;

I think you made that up.  Of course, at some point in history, only a select group were able to read, but only because they were taught and the rest weren&#039;t.  They weren&#039;t necessarily the &quot;top&quot; of anything, except luck.  The ability to read really isn&#039;t related to intelligence.  Even kids with Down Syndrome can learn to read, although their comprehension will never equal that of someone with normal intelligence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Long ago perhaps only the top 5% of people could read</i></p>
<p>I think you made that up.  Of course, at some point in history, only a select group were able to read, but only because they were taught and the rest weren&#8217;t.  They weren&#8217;t necessarily the &#8220;top&#8221; of anything, except luck.  The ability to read really isn&#8217;t related to intelligence.  Even kids with Down Syndrome can learn to read, although their comprehension will never equal that of someone with normal intelligence.</p>
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		<title>By: Joanne</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/11/wrong-answers/comment-page-1/#comment-63656</link>
		<dc:creator>Joanne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 21:19:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/11/17/wrong-answers/#comment-63656</guid>
		<description>Barry, AVID is a program that teaches study strategies and makes sure that students who say they want to go to college actually enroll in college-prep courses. It provides tutoring and monitoring as they go through school. I&#039;ve never hear of students taking AVID math or AVID English. They take the regular college-prep courses offered by the school. AVID has been quite successful for students who start ninth grade prepared to take algebra, which is the minimum level required. Sadly, many Hispanic and black students for whom the program was designed do not qualify as algebra-ready in ninth grade.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Barry, AVID is a program that teaches study strategies and makes sure that students who say they want to go to college actually enroll in college-prep courses. It provides tutoring and monitoring as they go through school. I&#8217;ve never hear of students taking AVID math or AVID English. They take the regular college-prep courses offered by the school. AVID has been quite successful for students who start ninth grade prepared to take algebra, which is the minimum level required. Sadly, many Hispanic and black students for whom the program was designed do not qualify as algebra-ready in ninth grade.</p>
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		<title>By: Walter E. Wallis</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/11/wrong-answers/comment-page-1/#comment-63653</link>
		<dc:creator>Walter E. Wallis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 21:07:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/11/17/wrong-answers/#comment-63653</guid>
		<description>ad hominem. What Southern cooks do to almost everything. AKA grits.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ad hominem. What Southern cooks do to almost everything. AKA grits.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/11/wrong-answers/comment-page-1/#comment-63652</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 20:48:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/11/17/wrong-answers/#comment-63652</guid>
		<description>in a modest modern physics class, a below average student could learn, apply and be fluent in things that Newton never considered.   (granted much less so for music and Mozart -- or Beethoven, Ragnarok)

but they couldn&#039;t take that class if they never progressed that far in science by being placed in the &quot;less than 50%&quot; track.

Certainly some students will learn the material faster, but that&#039;s not reason to triage access or to dumb down the material.    Long ago perhaps only the top 5% of people could read: no reason to keep old standards unexamined nor to think that they can&#039;t be improved.   The argument isn&#039;t one of linearity, but a challenge to have good curriculum, good teachers and good support.  It&#039;s not rocket science.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>in a modest modern physics class, a below average student could learn, apply and be fluent in things that Newton never considered.   (granted much less so for music and Mozart &#8212; or Beethoven, Ragnarok)</p>
<p>but they couldn&#8217;t take that class if they never progressed that far in science by being placed in the &#8220;less than 50%&#8221; track.</p>
<p>Certainly some students will learn the material faster, but that&#8217;s not reason to triage access or to dumb down the material.    Long ago perhaps only the top 5% of people could read: no reason to keep old standards unexamined nor to think that they can&#8217;t be improved.   The argument isn&#8217;t one of linearity, but a challenge to have good curriculum, good teachers and good support.  It&#8217;s not rocket science.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Nieporent</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/11/wrong-answers/comment-page-1/#comment-63648</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Nieporent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 19:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/11/17/wrong-answers/#comment-63648</guid>
		<description>Zuzuzpetals, since you seem to be so interested in the meaning of words, go look up ad hominem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Zuzuzpetals, since you seem to be so interested in the meaning of words, go look up ad hominem.</p>
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