Define what a good education is, please.

My bad, I was thinking of the role of respiration in speech production, which is where Bernoulli comes in.

Allen,

Only YOU could read a chart that clearly says 58% of charter schools in Ohio are in academic watch or academic emergency vs. 10% of the public schools, and claim the charters were doing better.

As for the “other indicators”, what of them? Public schools have to deal with them too.

Andy,

I have never heard of an instance where a charter school was shut down due to poor academic performance. The only ones I’ve ever heard of being shut down were due to finacial mismangement. My reading on that is limited to Texas, so perhaps you can enlighten me on that one.

I’ve answered your question about shutting down a public school numerous times. If the local public school is THAT bad, then find the people responsible and hold them accountable.

“I have 3rd graders who can explain how the Bernoulli effect allows us to breathe…”

How does it do that, Mike?

I didn’t say that MiT supported any of the plans, I said that he claimed to support the idea but opposed all plans.

He agrees that I’m correct about the latter. Does he oppose the idea? If so, why should we pay good teachers more?

> and as far as the tests go, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

MiT “forgets” that bad private schools are far more likely to be closed down than bad public schools.

As far as the “goose gander” thing, I note that MiT wants to shut down mediocre private schools but has yet to see a public school so bad that he thinks that it should be shut down.

He’ll object to that characterization but won’t manage to come up with an example of a public school that should be shut down.

I do? I’ll ask you what I asked my mother when she warned me about bad girls: names! I need names!

> Be sure to tell them you can turn a profit.

Public education still tragically underfunded? I’m sure turning a profit’ll look pretty good after a couple of decades of “more” for no visible return other then more and more transparently self-serving excuses.

> Trust me, they won’t give a damn whether kids learn or not since they know they won’t be held accountable.

Coming from someone who disdains any accountability measures but when there’s no escaping the inevitability of accounting insists that the measurees ought to be the measurers, I don’t think we could do worse then the status quo system you’re so enamored of.

> I could run a great school if I got to hand pick my students, demand the parents volunteer at the school…

Got it. If it was easy, you could do it but anything short of an ideal situation and the public has to be satisfied with an insincere grin and a shrug of the shoulders.

> But alas, at least here in Texas, all children have the constitutional right to a free public education.

Not entirely accurate. Children are required to attend school. That’s not an education. That’s a location.

> Someone has to see to it they get a good one.

Too easy.

> My students LOVE science, and they and their parents tell me all the time.

Well bully for you. Even giving you the benefit of the doubt, are you implying that your splendid abilities are the norm?

> I have 3rd graders who can explain how the Bernoulli effect allows us to breathe and allows airplanes to fly.

The Bernoulli effect allows us to breathe? Someone ought to let Bernoulli know. Oh, and if you’re going to tell them about the Bernoulli explanation you ought throw in, by what of complete, the Newtonian explanation. You know, action, reaction?

> I also have 3rd graders who can tell you HOW a telescope allows you to see more distant objects.

Reflective or refractive.

> I don’t give a crap about the state test scores, my kids learn and they love science.

See above.

> That is all the validation I need.

But that’s not all the validation the people paying for public education need. Representative government means high-handed dismissals like that are displays of immature bravado.

But I’d welcome your making your disdain more widely known. I can hardly think of anything that’ll be more effective in propelling all public education reform proposals.

> BTW, I’ve never said I was in favor of any pay for performance plans and as far as the tests go, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

Since charters are public schools in every sense of the word but being a pseudopod of a school district, they have to conform to all aplicable state and federal requirements including NCLB.

> I seem to remember that in the largest and longest running charter school experiment, the state of Ohio, charters are doing a worse job than the public schools.

Something a bit more reliable then your memory would be nice. Oh look, a link!

> Here’s the link to the data from the Ohio Dept. of Education:

Having read the entire report it’s clear that charters perform at state average level to above and that’s with no more then a few years of operation, smaller budgets and getting the more troublesome kids from the district schools.

> Or here’s more from a pro charter group:

And here’s some more from the same page:

She found percentage of both traditional and charter schools that charter school students outperformed students in making AYP under NCLB rose. Fifty-two percent of comparable district schools in most states.

I absolutely LOVE this quote, also from page 21:

Yeah, it’s peachy isn’t it? I’d certainly invite everyone to read the section for themselves. It’s the one labeled: Other Indicators.

Well this is old home week, hey? You misrepresent some piece of research and I respond with the quotes out of the same publication that are necessary to appreciate the misrepresentation.

Student achievement, measured by standardized
tests, is important. But it is not the only criterion by
which schools should be judged.

The “reformers” want the public schools judge by a single test, but when their schools are labeled failing they want to suddenly find other factors to assess schools.

You have lots of friends in the corporate world, just check some of the big name corporations and conservative think-tanks and you can probably find lots of willing people to fund your little pet project. Be sure to tell them you can turn a profit. Trust me, they won’t give a damn whether kids learn or not since they know they won’t be held accountable.

As for my own school, too easy. I could run a great school if I got to hand pick my students, demand the parents volunteer at the school and kick out the kids who might drag our test scores down. But alas, at least here in Texas, all children have the constitutional right to a free public education. Someone has to see to it they get a good one.

Andy,

You can try to denigrate my teaching abilities all you want, but unfortunately it doesn’t increase the strength of your arguements.

What would you consider a valid measurement of my abilities? Test scores? My science students have had the highest test scores on the Texas Science tests in the county I teach in for the last 2 years, or the amount of time it took for kids who had labs under me for 3 years to reach the grade level the science test is given.

Are my students interested in science and look forward to coming to the Science lab? Absolutely. My students LOVE science, and they and their parents tell me all the time.

More importantly, are my kids learning Science? Absolutely. I have 3rd graders who can explain how the Bernoulli effect allows us to breathe and allows airplanes to fly. I also have 3rd graders who can tell you HOW a telescope allows you to see more distant objects.

So there’s 3 measures of my abilities. I don’t give a crap about the state test scores, my kids learn and they love science. That is all the validation I need.

BTW, I’ve never said I was in favor of any pay for performance plans and as far as the tests go, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander. Let the corporate run schools take the same tests the public schools have to take. I seem to remember that in the largest and longest running charter school experiment, the state of Ohio, charters are doing a worse job than the public schools.

Here’s the link to the data from the Ohio Dept. of Education:

http://www.ode.state.oh.us/GD/DocumentManagement/DocumentDownload.aspx?DocumentID=22750

Or here’s more from a pro charter group:

http://www.ppionline.org/documents/Ohioreport_0201.pdf

Page 21

Percentage of schools on
academic watch or in
academic emergency status 58%

Note, that 58% figure is for charter schools.

Except that that’s not true.

It’s nice to see MiT again. At one time, he said that he believed in pay for public teacher performance, but it turned out that there wasn’t a test for performance that he found acceptable.

I wonder if any of that has changed.

I’ll add something. MiT is more than willing to trot out tests that show that some private schools aren’t doing significantly better than some public schools. In other words, tests that support his position are acceptable while tests that implement pay-for-performance are not.

I’ll close by noting that if we can’t measure performance, there’s no point in paying for it. We can replace MiT with someone cheaper who, by the evaluation measures that MiT accepts (namely none), is just as good.

And even a fair test must deal with the fact that some students. who know what the test means for the teachers, won’t try hard. Human error really messes with this, doesn’t it?

I say test the teachers: if they know their material very well, give them a bonus. If they don’t, then they should be washed out of their profession somehow or other. And no, a degree doesn’t equal competence.