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	<title>Comments on: Seeking smarts</title>
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	<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/09/seeking-smarts/</link>
	<description>Thinking and Linking by Joanne Jacobs</description>
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		<title>By: David Ross</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/09/seeking-smarts/#comment-35870</link>
		<dc:creator>David Ross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Sep 2007 01:19:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/09/18/seeking-smarts/#comment-35870</guid>
		<description>Oh wow, I don&#039;t have to register for comments here anymore...

I took a year of CS (in 1995); the real major was math. Now I&#039;m a programmer.

The first class I took in CS was in Scheme, a lambda-calculus language which no-one EVER uses in the field. That class also had a look at assembler, also not used in the field anymore unless you are a troll. The second class was in C++, which means pointers and header files and memory management - which, once more, is not used in these days of .NET and Java. That class was also almost entirely algorithm based; binary trees, charts, etc. Again! I&#039;ve never used any of this.

I&#039;ll tell you what *is* used in the field: relational databases, O.O. design patterns, event raising, the Internet, handling a graphical user interface, naming conventions, and threads. Nowhere did I mention linked-lists, trees, pointers, and destructors in this.

There are plenty of good books on database design, the &quot;for dummies&quot; book on design patterns works well, and the Microsoft certification exams are helpful in memorising the Microsoft way of expressing all those concepts. All I got out of college was object orientation, which is admittedly the basis for everything, but not nearly enough.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh wow, I don&#8217;t have to register for comments here anymore&#8230;</p>
<p>I took a year of CS (in 1995); the real major was math. Now I&#8217;m a programmer.</p>
<p>The first class I took in CS was in Scheme, a lambda-calculus language which no-one EVER uses in the field. That class also had a look at assembler, also not used in the field anymore unless you are a troll. The second class was in C++, which means pointers and header files and memory management &#8211; which, once more, is not used in these days of .NET and Java. That class was also almost entirely algorithm based; binary trees, charts, etc. Again! I&#8217;ve never used any of this.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll tell you what *is* used in the field: relational databases, O.O. design patterns, event raising, the Internet, handling a graphical user interface, naming conventions, and threads. Nowhere did I mention linked-lists, trees, pointers, and destructors in this.</p>
<p>There are plenty of good books on database design, the &#8220;for dummies&#8221; book on design patterns works well, and the Microsoft certification exams are helpful in memorising the Microsoft way of expressing all those concepts. All I got out of college was object orientation, which is admittedly the basis for everything, but not nearly enough.</p>
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		<title>By: hardlyb</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/09/seeking-smarts/#comment-35869</link>
		<dc:creator>hardlyb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 16:42:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/09/18/seeking-smarts/#comment-35869</guid>
		<description>Multi-variable calculus isn&#039;t much harder than single variable calculus, if you understand it (the tangent space has an N in it instead of a 1). What they meant by saying that the work was trivial was that, once you knew the fairly simple math required to do the work, the job required very little day to day thought. They told me that I&#039;d be bored by lunch the first day, and I believed them. One of them also told me that the only reason that he didn&#039;t quit is that he was making more than 2.5 times what he could get doing physics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Multi-variable calculus isn&#8217;t much harder than single variable calculus, if you understand it (the tangent space has an N in it instead of a 1). What they meant by saying that the work was trivial was that, once you knew the fairly simple math required to do the work, the job required very little day to day thought. They told me that I&#8217;d be bored by lunch the first day, and I believed them. One of them also told me that the only reason that he didn&#8217;t quit is that he was making more than 2.5 times what he could get doing physics.</p>
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		<title>By: david foster</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/09/seeking-smarts/#comment-35868</link>
		<dc:creator>david foster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:04:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/09/18/seeking-smarts/#comment-35868</guid>
		<description>Management consultant Michael Hammer has some &lt;a href=&quot;http://photoncourier.blogspot.com/2004_11_01_photoncourier_archive.html#109987771486855810&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;contrarian thoughts&lt;/a&gt; on undergraduate education for business.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Management consultant Michael Hammer has some <a href="http://photoncourier.blogspot.com/2004_11_01_photoncourier_archive.html#109987771486855810" rel="nofollow">contrarian thoughts</a> on undergraduate education for business.</p>
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		<title>By: Elizabeth</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/09/seeking-smarts/#comment-35867</link>
		<dc:creator>Elizabeth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 14:00:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/09/18/seeking-smarts/#comment-35867</guid>
		<description>A Business degree is very marketable - particularly with concentrations in Accounting or Marketing.  I always thought a BA in Econ (a social Science field) was a way to get a bank teller&#039;s job with advancement opportunities down the road.  But it comes back to your own initiative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A Business degree is very marketable &#8211; particularly with concentrations in Accounting or Marketing.  I always thought a BA in Econ (a social Science field) was a way to get a bank teller&#8217;s job with advancement opportunities down the road.  But it comes back to your own initiative.</p>
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		<title>By: greifer</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/09/seeking-smarts/#comment-35866</link>
		<dc:creator>greifer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Sep 2007 01:57:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/09/18/seeking-smarts/#comment-35866</guid>
		<description>Can someone tell me why ANYONE inferred that the high IQ kids were the ones who previously went into CS, and who supposedly now went into Econ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can someone tell me why ANYONE inferred that the high IQ kids were the ones who previously went into CS, and who supposedly now went into Econ?</p>
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		<title>By: wahoofive</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/09/seeking-smarts/#comment-35865</link>
		<dc:creator>wahoofive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 23:16:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/09/18/seeking-smarts/#comment-35865</guid>
		<description>&gt; when you talked to the math guys ... they said that the math was trivial.

Math guys ALWAYS say the math is trivial, even if it&#039;s multivariable calculus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; when you talked to the math guys &#8230; they said that the math was trivial.</p>
<p>Math guys ALWAYS say the math is trivial, even if it&#8217;s multivariable calculus.</p>
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		<title>By: hardlyb</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/09/seeking-smarts/#comment-35864</link>
		<dc:creator>hardlyb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 20:12:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/09/18/seeking-smarts/#comment-35864</guid>
		<description>Yeah, investment banking must be very easy to break into. Surely any field where people make millions a year must have a critical labor shortage.

I interviewed at a financial software place once, where they insisted that they needed people with math and programming backgrounds, but when you talked to the programmers they said that the programming was trivial but the math was hard, and when you talked to the math guys (who were mostly people with PhD&#039;s in physics), they said that the math was trivial, but... The funny thing was that each group discouraged me from joining because I was vastly overqualified for their work, so I ended up not getting an offer from the place, while a friend of mine who was less qualified in both areas was pushed hard to join. (He interviewed a couple more times, but then decided that ONLY thing the job had to offer was the very high salary. I also asked him what the &quot;real reason&quot; I didn&#039;t get the job was, and he said that it was actually that I was overqualified -- the people in each group were sure that I wouldn&#039;t stay long.) 

I went to grad school with someone that works on Wall Street, putting together derivatives of some kind, and she makes a boatload of money, and really likes the work. Her husband, another grad school friend of mine, did much the same thing, and hated it, so he stays home with the kids. I realize that I didn&#039;t know anything about anything when I chose my major in college, but at least I chose it based on what I liked, rather than trying to chase a buck. But I guess 7-11 can still use more people with economics degrees.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, investment banking must be very easy to break into. Surely any field where people make millions a year must have a critical labor shortage.</p>
<p>I interviewed at a financial software place once, where they insisted that they needed people with math and programming backgrounds, but when you talked to the programmers they said that the programming was trivial but the math was hard, and when you talked to the math guys (who were mostly people with PhD&#8217;s in physics), they said that the math was trivial, but&#8230; The funny thing was that each group discouraged me from joining because I was vastly overqualified for their work, so I ended up not getting an offer from the place, while a friend of mine who was less qualified in both areas was pushed hard to join. (He interviewed a couple more times, but then decided that ONLY thing the job had to offer was the very high salary. I also asked him what the &#8220;real reason&#8221; I didn&#8217;t get the job was, and he said that it was actually that I was overqualified &#8212; the people in each group were sure that I wouldn&#8217;t stay long.) </p>
<p>I went to grad school with someone that works on Wall Street, putting together derivatives of some kind, and she makes a boatload of money, and really likes the work. Her husband, another grad school friend of mine, did much the same thing, and hated it, so he stays home with the kids. I realize that I didn&#8217;t know anything about anything when I chose my major in college, but at least I chose it based on what I liked, rather than trying to chase a buck. But I guess 7-11 can still use more people with economics degrees.</p>
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		<title>By: Elizabeth</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/09/seeking-smarts/#comment-35863</link>
		<dc:creator>Elizabeth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 19:22:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/09/18/seeking-smarts/#comment-35863</guid>
		<description>Computer Sci has a very short half-life- many grads are laid off after some years experience and replaced by entry-level staff or overseas staff.  Same thing for Engineers in general - why study that hard to be too expensive or obsolete 5-10 years down the line.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Computer Sci has a very short half-life- many grads are laid off after some years experience and replaced by entry-level staff or overseas staff.  Same thing for Engineers in general &#8211; why study that hard to be too expensive or obsolete 5-10 years down the line.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/09/seeking-smarts/#comment-35862</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 18:56:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/09/18/seeking-smarts/#comment-35862</guid>
		<description>This is a funny coincidence.  This morning I stopped at a 7-11 (convenience store) and the guy in front of me in line had on a t-shirt for some college.  The guy behind the counter said, &quot;hey, that&#039;s my school!&quot; and they talked a bit.

Seems that the guy waiting on us had a degree in economics from their mutual alma mater.  Oddly, he professed this without the least embarrassment or irony.  I think economics must be one of those degrees where your only route to a good job is via graduate school...

As for programming, there is still good money to be made at it (say $75k to $150K per year), but you have to be good at it and have some sense (and luck) in choosing your employer.

The real problem is that, to today&#039;s bright kids, a paltry $75K is worthless.  They&#039;re interested in jobs that make millions.  There was a brief time, during the dot-com boom, where there was at least a chance at millions for programmers.  Those days are pretty much over, now, even though there are still companies with good stock option plans.

I think these kids are going to find, however, that the world only needs a small number of investment bankers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a funny coincidence.  This morning I stopped at a 7-11 (convenience store) and the guy in front of me in line had on a t-shirt for some college.  The guy behind the counter said, &#8220;hey, that&#8217;s my school!&#8221; and they talked a bit.</p>
<p>Seems that the guy waiting on us had a degree in economics from their mutual alma mater.  Oddly, he professed this without the least embarrassment or irony.  I think economics must be one of those degrees where your only route to a good job is via graduate school&#8230;</p>
<p>As for programming, there is still good money to be made at it (say $75k to $150K per year), but you have to be good at it and have some sense (and luck) in choosing your employer.</p>
<p>The real problem is that, to today&#8217;s bright kids, a paltry $75K is worthless.  They&#8217;re interested in jobs that make millions.  There was a brief time, during the dot-com boom, where there was at least a chance at millions for programmers.  Those days are pretty much over, now, even though there are still companies with good stock option plans.</p>
<p>I think these kids are going to find, however, that the world only needs a small number of investment bankers.</p>
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		<title>By: Cal</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/09/seeking-smarts/#comment-35861</link>
		<dc:creator>Cal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 18:18:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/09/18/seeking-smarts/#comment-35861</guid>
		<description>Bill Gates and Microsoft poured billions into India in order to develop a huge supply of cheap programmers that they could bring over to the US and undercut salaries.

So he can drink a big ol cup of shutup and quit pretending to wring his hands. In fact, this is probably just a prelude to another cry for more H1B programmers. 

He was one of the major causes of the devaluation of computer programmers. He can quit whining about their scarcity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill Gates and Microsoft poured billions into India in order to develop a huge supply of cheap programmers that they could bring over to the US and undercut salaries.</p>
<p>So he can drink a big ol cup of shutup and quit pretending to wring his hands. In fact, this is probably just a prelude to another cry for more H1B programmers. </p>
<p>He was one of the major causes of the devaluation of computer programmers. He can quit whining about their scarcity.</p>
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