<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Out of love with college</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/07/out-of-love-with-college/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/07/out-of-love-with-college/</link>
	<description>Thinking and Linking by Joanne Jacobs</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 04:51:22 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Catch Thirty-Thr33</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/07/out-of-love-with-college/#comment-34607</link>
		<dc:creator>Catch Thirty-Thr33</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:25:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/07/07/out-of-love-with-college/#comment-34607</guid>
		<description>Superdestroyer - I still disagree.  You do much factoring of numbers, but not passion to any degree. To wit - computer science.  I knew comp-sci majors who simply loved it and were flying through the program at well above 3.0.  The ones who either 1) hated it and were taking it to get a better paying job or 2) expected it to be one thing but turned out to be another dropped it like a bad habit.  And I have seen history majors, poli-sci types and others quit their programs, for various reasons.  I have seen some drop the program because they had NO IDEA how much reading/writing was involved!
What is hard for some is much easier than others.  To go back to the point about engineers - the ones I knew back in the day I regarded as geniuses for their mastery of mathematics.  They regarded me likewise because they simply could not begin to imagine the reading and writing that went into a single one of my papers/research projects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Superdestroyer &#8211; I still disagree.  You do much factoring of numbers, but not passion to any degree. To wit &#8211; computer science.  I knew comp-sci majors who simply loved it and were flying through the program at well above 3.0.  The ones who either 1) hated it and were taking it to get a better paying job or 2) expected it to be one thing but turned out to be another dropped it like a bad habit.  And I have seen history majors, poli-sci types and others quit their programs, for various reasons.  I have seen some drop the program because they had NO IDEA how much reading/writing was involved!<br />
What is hard for some is much easier than others.  To go back to the point about engineers &#8211; the ones I knew back in the day I regarded as geniuses for their mastery of mathematics.  They regarded me likewise because they simply could not begin to imagine the reading and writing that went into a single one of my papers/research projects.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Walter E. Wallis</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/07/out-of-love-with-college/#comment-34606</link>
		<dc:creator>Walter E. Wallis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jul 2007 01:06:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/07/07/out-of-love-with-college/#comment-34606</guid>
		<description>Any company that fails, within the probationary period, to separate the performers from the BS artists is in trouble. In my Army we had good ROTC and 90 day wonders, and bad Pointers. Glitter helps in the front office, less so in the back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Any company that fails, within the probationary period, to separate the performers from the BS artists is in trouble. In my Army we had good ROTC and 90 day wonders, and bad Pointers. Glitter helps in the front office, less so in the back.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: david foster</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/07/out-of-love-with-college/#comment-34605</link>
		<dc:creator>david foster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jul 2007 20:28:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/07/07/out-of-love-with-college/#comment-34605</guid>
		<description>ng...&quot;The real puzzle is why employers donâ€™t work harder to punish schools that grade inflate. Or to reward graduates of programs that grade hard&quot;...think how many different colleges there are, and how many major fields available in each college. Gathering the data to measure grading policies would be hard, and except for the very largest corporations, probably impossible to get enough data. (Unless some kind of pooling could be done)

&quot;Ironically, the humanities used to be hard grading. There was a time before WWII when many Latin or history programs had standards that were just as rigorous as those in the sciences&quot;...I think this is correct. What seems to be happening is that all subjects are being converted into &quot;social studies&quot;--more rapidly for the traditional humanities, more slowly for the hard sciences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ng&#8230;&#8221;The real puzzle is why employers donâ€™t work harder to punish schools that grade inflate. Or to reward graduates of programs that grade hard&#8221;&#8230;think how many different colleges there are, and how many major fields available in each college. Gathering the data to measure grading policies would be hard, and except for the very largest corporations, probably impossible to get enough data. (Unless some kind of pooling could be done)</p>
<p>&#8220;Ironically, the humanities used to be hard grading. There was a time before WWII when many Latin or history programs had standards that were just as rigorous as those in the sciences&#8221;&#8230;I think this is correct. What seems to be happening is that all subjects are being converted into &#8220;social studies&#8221;&#8211;more rapidly for the traditional humanities, more slowly for the hard sciences.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: KateCoe</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/07/out-of-love-with-college/#comment-34604</link>
		<dc:creator>KateCoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jul 2007 17:37:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/07/07/out-of-love-with-college/#comment-34604</guid>
		<description>The UC&#039;s claim that any student with a B average and enough credits in the Community Colleges can transfer. But it&#039;s nearly impossible to actually get those credits in a timely fashion, due to over crowding, under scheduling. My son is short 2 sceince classes, and this summer, finally got into one, only to be booted due to a &quot;lottery&quot; method of cutting down the class size.
I don&#039;t want to hover, but I told him to tell his counselor that that&#039;s an unfair way to do it--if you&#039;ve working on your 7th semester at a CC, you should get priority.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The UC&#8217;s claim that any student with a B average and enough credits in the Community Colleges can transfer. But it&#8217;s nearly impossible to actually get those credits in a timely fashion, due to over crowding, under scheduling. My son is short 2 sceince classes, and this summer, finally got into one, only to be booted due to a &#8220;lottery&#8221; method of cutting down the class size.<br />
I don&#8217;t want to hover, but I told him to tell his counselor that that&#8217;s an unfair way to do it&#8211;if you&#8217;ve working on your 7th semester at a CC, you should get priority.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: no gandhi</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/07/out-of-love-with-college/#comment-34603</link>
		<dc:creator>no gandhi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jul 2007 16:42:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/07/07/out-of-love-with-college/#comment-34603</guid>
		<description>The real puzzle is why employers don&#039;t work harder to punish schools that grade inflate.  Or to reward graduates of programs that grade hard and produce talented alums.

The truth is that there are many jobs and grad schools (especially med schools and law schools) which prefer to take students with bad degrees and inflated A&#039;s over bright engineers with too many C&#039;s on the transcript.  This is a well-known and well-studied effect that leads to still more grade inflation.  [For example, MIT grads have a harder time getting into med school than Yale grads despite having on the average higher test scores and having gone through a more rigorous science curriculum, all else being equal.  Only their grade point averages are different.]

Until companies regularly say -- We would rather take the high GRE, C student in chemical engineering from Wonka Tech over the straight A sociology and Amazon studies major from Bozo U, the tough grading, honest curricula of tech subjects -- which includes math, stats, math econ programs, and the natural sciences, there will always be a tendency of the lazy or the ambitious to go for the easiest A compatible with success.

Ironically, the humanities used to be hard grading.  There was a time before WWII when many Latin or history programs had standards that were just as rigorous as those in the sciences.  But since the 60s, the idea of flunking people and giving out C&#039;s to those who can&#039;t write well in English seems to have faded away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The real puzzle is why employers don&#8217;t work harder to punish schools that grade inflate.  Or to reward graduates of programs that grade hard and produce talented alums.</p>
<p>The truth is that there are many jobs and grad schools (especially med schools and law schools) which prefer to take students with bad degrees and inflated A&#8217;s over bright engineers with too many C&#8217;s on the transcript.  This is a well-known and well-studied effect that leads to still more grade inflation.  [For example, MIT grads have a harder time getting into med school than Yale grads despite having on the average higher test scores and having gone through a more rigorous science curriculum, all else being equal.  Only their grade point averages are different.]</p>
<p>Until companies regularly say &#8212; We would rather take the high GRE, C student in chemical engineering from Wonka Tech over the straight A sociology and Amazon studies major from Bozo U, the tough grading, honest curricula of tech subjects &#8212; which includes math, stats, math econ programs, and the natural sciences, there will always be a tendency of the lazy or the ambitious to go for the easiest A compatible with success.</p>
<p>Ironically, the humanities used to be hard grading.  There was a time before WWII when many Latin or history programs had standards that were just as rigorous as those in the sciences.  But since the 60s, the idea of flunking people and giving out C&#8217;s to those who can&#8217;t write well in English seems to have faded away.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Richard Aubrey</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/07/out-of-love-with-college/#comment-34602</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Aubrey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jul 2007 15:30:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/07/07/out-of-love-with-college/#comment-34602</guid>
		<description>I have a friend who commented that the Maytag repairman wants $85 to knock on the door.
We recently gave the rotorooter guy about $325 for an hour&#039;s work.
Our remodeling contractor....don&#039;t ask.

IMO, sometime in the late nineteenth century, the academics who had thought themselves superior found the industrial magnates surpassing them in wealth and status.  Thus, virtue had to be defined as being directly proportional to accumulated classroom seat time.  But most people don&#039;t want to be poor while being virtuous, so it has been an article of faith that college grads earn more than high school grads.  This may be true, but it might not be if the high school grads were divided into two classes, one which had the self-discipline, limited as it is, to finish college although they didn&#039;t, and those who didn&#039;t.  The self-discipline strikes me as the differentiating factor.  Intelligence, as well, and people skills.

Some time back, in a journal for Armor officers, I read of a training program an armored cavalry regiment put together for duty in the Balkans.  One test was an armored personnel carrier tasked to clear a road for a humanitarian convoy comes to a road block.  No telling which side, of several, the guys are from.  Could be from the black marketers&#039; enforcement group.  If the humanitarian aid gets through, black market prices go down.  But, while trying to get the guys to clear the road, the US vehicle is engaged from the flank by a machine gun.  Can&#039;t tell who&#039;s behind the MG.  Firing at the road block?  The US?  Drunks who found a machine gun?
The objective.  Clear the road, destroy the machine gun, don&#039;t get any US soldiers killed. Don&#039;t commit war crimes.
For extra pizzaz, there is a pretend-butthead from the BNN (Blackhorse News Network) who is always trying to provoke stuff along for the ride.
The guy in charge of the vehicle would be a mid-level NCO, whose college, if any, is a matter of courses here and there, bits and pieces.
Sure like to see the academic elites handle that one.


That said, some version of liberal arts--not the marxist post modernist type--makes for a better citizen. But that could be done if high school.  More history, for example.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a friend who commented that the Maytag repairman wants $85 to knock on the door.<br />
We recently gave the rotorooter guy about $325 for an hour&#8217;s work.<br />
Our remodeling contractor&#8230;.don&#8217;t ask.</p>
<p>IMO, sometime in the late nineteenth century, the academics who had thought themselves superior found the industrial magnates surpassing them in wealth and status.  Thus, virtue had to be defined as being directly proportional to accumulated classroom seat time.  But most people don&#8217;t want to be poor while being virtuous, so it has been an article of faith that college grads earn more than high school grads.  This may be true, but it might not be if the high school grads were divided into two classes, one which had the self-discipline, limited as it is, to finish college although they didn&#8217;t, and those who didn&#8217;t.  The self-discipline strikes me as the differentiating factor.  Intelligence, as well, and people skills.</p>
<p>Some time back, in a journal for Armor officers, I read of a training program an armored cavalry regiment put together for duty in the Balkans.  One test was an armored personnel carrier tasked to clear a road for a humanitarian convoy comes to a road block.  No telling which side, of several, the guys are from.  Could be from the black marketers&#8217; enforcement group.  If the humanitarian aid gets through, black market prices go down.  But, while trying to get the guys to clear the road, the US vehicle is engaged from the flank by a machine gun.  Can&#8217;t tell who&#8217;s behind the MG.  Firing at the road block?  The US?  Drunks who found a machine gun?<br />
The objective.  Clear the road, destroy the machine gun, don&#8217;t get any US soldiers killed. Don&#8217;t commit war crimes.<br />
For extra pizzaz, there is a pretend-butthead from the BNN (Blackhorse News Network) who is always trying to provoke stuff along for the ride.<br />
The guy in charge of the vehicle would be a mid-level NCO, whose college, if any, is a matter of courses here and there, bits and pieces.<br />
Sure like to see the academic elites handle that one.</p>
<p>That said, some version of liberal arts&#8211;not the marxist post modernist type&#8211;makes for a better citizen. But that could be done if high school.  More history, for example.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: TC</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/07/out-of-love-with-college/#comment-34601</link>
		<dc:creator>TC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jul 2007 15:03:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/07/07/out-of-love-with-college/#comment-34601</guid>
		<description>College, best 7 years of my life.  

I can&#039;t fault parents complaining about the cost of education, my 4 years from 1970-74 cost me all of 8K.  Had a Pell grant, partial scholarship, and made about 1500 a summer working in the mills.  Remember them?  Didn&#039;t owe a dime upon graduation. Eight thousand is probably what books cost these days.

As to the easy major, in my fraternity we called Engineering Pre-Business.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>College, best 7 years of my life.  </p>
<p>I can&#8217;t fault parents complaining about the cost of education, my 4 years from 1970-74 cost me all of 8K.  Had a Pell grant, partial scholarship, and made about 1500 a summer working in the mills.  Remember them?  Didn&#8217;t owe a dime upon graduation. Eight thousand is probably what books cost these days.</p>
<p>As to the easy major, in my fraternity we called Engineering Pre-Business.  <img src='http://www.joannejacobs.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: J.</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/07/out-of-love-with-college/#comment-34600</link>
		<dc:creator>J.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jul 2007 15:03:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/07/07/out-of-love-with-college/#comment-34600</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I fully understand why the traditional academic world sneers at and discounts operations such as U. of Phoenix: it is threatened.&lt;/i&gt;

That&#039;s one reason.  The other is the same reason community colleges are routinely maligned by those in the academia: they are elitist snobs who dislike poor people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I fully understand why the traditional academic world sneers at and discounts operations such as U. of Phoenix: it is threatened.</i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s one reason.  The other is the same reason community colleges are routinely maligned by those in the academia: they are elitist snobs who dislike poor people.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: superdestroyer</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/07/out-of-love-with-college/#comment-34599</link>
		<dc:creator>superdestroyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jul 2007 13:02:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/07/07/out-of-love-with-college/#comment-34599</guid>
		<description>Catch-33

Here is the test of an easy major.  How many people quit engineering to major in history, political science, or business?  How many people quit majoring in history to major in chemical engineering?  very, very few. 

If you want to find an easy major, just look at the GPA expected to get into graduate school.  An engineer can probably get in with a 3.0 or less.  I doubt you could do that is Psych or political science.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Catch-33</p>
<p>Here is the test of an easy major.  How many people quit engineering to major in history, political science, or business?  How many people quit majoring in history to major in chemical engineering?  very, very few. </p>
<p>If you want to find an easy major, just look at the GPA expected to get into graduate school.  An engineer can probably get in with a 3.0 or less.  I doubt you could do that is Psych or political science.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Catch Thirty-Thr33</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/07/out-of-love-with-college/#comment-34598</link>
		<dc:creator>Catch Thirty-Thr33</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jul 2007 11:28:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/07/07/out-of-love-with-college/#comment-34598</guid>
		<description>Superdestroyer - What could be wrong with picking an &quot;easy&quot; major?  Besides, that is a quite relative term.  I knew engineering majors who were having an easier time of it because they enjoyed what they were doing - having that passion made a technical, demanding subject easier - indeed, fun, for many of them.  They looked in sheer horror at me, the history major, especially when I explained to them just how much reading and writing went into the discipline.  Of course, as I enjoy both reading and writing, the history degree for me was &quot;easier&quot;.  
I see absolutely nothing wrong with playing to one&#039;s strengths.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Superdestroyer &#8211; What could be wrong with picking an &#8220;easy&#8221; major?  Besides, that is a quite relative term.  I knew engineering majors who were having an easier time of it because they enjoyed what they were doing &#8211; having that passion made a technical, demanding subject easier &#8211; indeed, fun, for many of them.  They looked in sheer horror at me, the history major, especially when I explained to them just how much reading and writing went into the discipline.  Of course, as I enjoy both reading and writing, the history degree for me was &#8220;easier&#8221;.<br />
I see absolutely nothing wrong with playing to one&#8217;s strengths.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

