Comments on: Luck of the draw http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/04/luck-of-the-draw/ Thinking and Linking by Joanne Jacobs Fri, 10 Feb 2012 03:37:54 +0000 hourly 1 By: Bob http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/04/luck-of-the-draw/#comment-32636 Bob Tue, 10 Apr 2007 22:24:33 +0000 http://joannejacobs.com/2007/04/09/luck-of-the-draw/#comment-32636 Hey, MY kid got into Harvard. Early-admission, too. What's everybody complaining about? Hey, MY kid got into Harvard. Early-admission, too. What’s everybody complaining about?

]]> By: David Dworin Online » Blog Archive » Lottos for Admissions? How about auctions… http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/04/luck-of-the-draw/#comment-32635 David Dworin Online » Blog Archive » Lottos for Admissions? How about auctions… Tue, 10 Apr 2007 17:57:06 +0000 http://joannejacobs.com/2007/04/09/luck-of-the-draw/#comment-32635 [...] Jacobs passes along Barry Schwartz’s recommendation that elite universities use a lottery for admissions (I couldn’t find the whole article): There is probably a right answer to the questions [...] [...] Jacobs passes along Barry Schwartz’s recommendation that elite universities use a lottery for admissions (I couldn’t find the whole article): There is probably a right answer to the questions [...]

]]> By: markm http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/04/luck-of-the-draw/#comment-32634 markm Tue, 10 Apr 2007 15:44:15 +0000 http://joannejacobs.com/2007/04/09/luck-of-the-draw/#comment-32634 "Topic One: Get Over Your Need To Have Your Kid At A Name Brand School That Will Impress Your Friends." Admission to Harvard wouldn't be so impressive if it was by lottery, eh? But would Harvard do this if they realized that the cost was reducing their cachet? “Topic One: Get Over Your Need To Have Your Kid At A Name Brand School That Will Impress Your Friends.” Admission to Harvard wouldn’t be so impressive if it was by lottery, eh? But would Harvard do this if they realized that the cost was reducing their cachet?

]]> By: Liz Ditz http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/04/luck-of-the-draw/#comment-32633 Liz Ditz Tue, 10 Apr 2007 02:13:30 +0000 http://joannejacobs.com/2007/04/09/luck-of-the-draw/#comment-32633 Several things: 1. <i>Students who lose the lottery at the “best” colleges will get into a good-enough college. They won’t be losers. </i> (a) The "best" college for Ms. X would be a disaster for Mr. Y, and vice-versa. We could posit 101 reasons why. (b) False dichotomy -- the "best" & "good-enough". As in, is there one dimension of "best"? 2. I feel like I should be running the Great Parents of High School Sophomores Re-Education Camp. Topic One: Get Over Your Need To Have Your Kid At A Name Brand School That Will Impress Your Friends. Topic Two: Find the School That Fits Your Kid. Topic Three: Be Realistic About Your Kid's High-School Performance. Topic Four: Be Realistic -- Will Your Kid Learn More/Perform Better if He is In the Top 10% of Given College's Admittees? Top 25%? Second 10%? Second 25% (ie, is he a coaster or a striver?) 3. There's no way to do this, but: somehow limit the number of schools a kid applies to. Since I'm a Californian, I count applying to the entire UC system as one application. The CSU system counts as a second application. I don't see any reason for a child to apply to more than 6 (10 if I am feeling generous). While we were on the Grand College Tour in 2006, I heard one admissions officer report 33 unique schools from one applicant, and 25 unique schools for another. Several things:

1. Students who lose the lottery at the “best” colleges will get into a good-enough college. They won’t be losers. (a) The “best” college for Ms. X would be a disaster for Mr. Y, and vice-versa. We could posit 101 reasons why. (b) False dichotomy — the “best” & “good-enough”. As in, is there one dimension of “best”?

2. I feel like I should be running the Great Parents of High School Sophomores Re-Education Camp. Topic One: Get Over Your Need To Have Your Kid At A Name Brand School That Will Impress Your Friends. Topic Two: Find the School That Fits Your Kid. Topic Three: Be Realistic About Your Kid’s High-School Performance. Topic Four: Be Realistic — Will Your Kid Learn More/Perform Better if He is In the Top 10% of Given College’s Admittees? Top 25%? Second 10%? Second 25% (ie, is he a coaster or a striver?)

3. There’s no way to do this, but: somehow limit the number of schools a kid applies to. Since I’m a Californian, I count applying to the entire UC system as one application. The CSU system counts as a second application. I don’t see any reason for a child to apply to more than 6 (10 if I am feeling generous). While we were on the Grand College Tour in 2006, I heard one admissions officer report 33 unique schools from one applicant, and 25 unique schools for another.

]]> By: Dan Rosenfield http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/04/luck-of-the-draw/#comment-32632 Dan Rosenfield Tue, 10 Apr 2007 01:04:05 +0000 http://joannejacobs.com/2007/04/09/luck-of-the-draw/#comment-32632 As a veteran enrollment magager and publisher of a college and scholarship information website I am concerned about some of the trends in college admission, but the fact is that a relatively small percentage of colleges deny more students than they admit. Unfortunately, the press focuses on the most highly selective colleges, leading folks to believe the whole system is broken. In fact, more than two thirds of college freshmen report they are attending their first choice college. As flawed as the process may be, and as arbitrary as some of the top colleges may appear to be in admitting students, their efforts certainly result in a better match between students and colleges than would a lottery. As a veteran enrollment magager and publisher of a college and scholarship information website I am concerned about some of the trends in college admission, but the fact is that a relatively small percentage of colleges deny more students than they admit. Unfortunately, the press focuses on the most highly selective colleges, leading folks to believe the whole system is broken. In fact, more than two thirds of college freshmen report they are attending their first choice college.

As flawed as the process may be, and as arbitrary as some of the top colleges may appear to be in admitting students, their efforts certainly result in a better match between students and colleges than would a lottery.

]]> By: Ms. Cornelius http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/04/luck-of-the-draw/#comment-32631 Ms. Cornelius Tue, 10 Apr 2007 00:32:44 +0000 http://joannejacobs.com/2007/04/09/luck-of-the-draw/#comment-32631 I just had a marvelous former student not get into ANY of the insanely selective schools to which he applied, while his buddy who had fewer accolades got into a very chichi Ivy. It really is a crapshoot. He is a great student, a very facile writer, and now we are going into Plan B. He didn't listen when I talked in class about making sure you don't just go for cachet, but now he's taking a different tack, and we are all trying to help him see the gems he overlooked-- places where he will excel and be happy. It's tough. I just had a marvelous former student not get into ANY of the insanely selective schools to which he applied, while his buddy who had fewer accolades got into a very chichi Ivy. It really is a crapshoot. He is a great student, a very facile writer, and now we are going into Plan B.

He didn’t listen when I talked in class about making sure you don’t just go for cachet, but now he’s taking a different tack, and we are all trying to help him see the gems he overlooked– places where he will excel and be happy. It’s tough.

]]> By: greifer http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/04/luck-of-the-draw/#comment-32630 greifer Mon, 09 Apr 2007 22:09:07 +0000 http://joannejacobs.com/2007/04/09/luck-of-the-draw/#comment-32630 the proposed method also fails to understand that schools would lose their cachet this way. once it's clear that it doesn't really matter who they take, it's also clear that then it doesn't really matter where you go. right now, kids want to go to Yale or MIT or Reed because of the propemsity to be around certain types of people. but the randomness undercuts the argument (whether it was ever true is irrelevant) that there's anything unique about the student body. then why bother trying hard to get in anywhere? there's no value in Brown or Skidmore. might as well not bother to go anywhere hard. the proposed method also fails to understand that schools would lose their cachet this way. once it’s clear that it doesn’t really matter who they take, it’s also clear that then it doesn’t really matter where you go. right now, kids want to go to Yale or MIT or Reed because of the propemsity to be around certain types of people. but the randomness undercuts the argument (whether it was ever true is irrelevant) that there’s anything unique about the student body. then why bother trying hard to get in anywhere? there’s no value in Brown or Skidmore. might as well not bother to go anywhere hard.

]]> By: Half Canadian http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/04/luck-of-the-draw/#comment-32629 Half Canadian Mon, 09 Apr 2007 19:44:50 +0000 http://joannejacobs.com/2007/04/09/luck-of-the-draw/#comment-32629 This takes the position that the student is there for the school. In fact, the school is there for the student. This proposed method would not encourage students to work hard. This takes the position that the student is there for the school. In fact, the school is there for the student. This proposed method would not encourage students to work hard.

]]> By: Mark Roulo http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/04/luck-of-the-draw/#comment-32628 Mark Roulo Mon, 09 Apr 2007 16:17:00 +0000 http://joannejacobs.com/2007/04/09/luck-of-the-draw/#comment-32628 Won't a lottery just encourage these students to apply to even *MORE* schools? If I know that I have a 10% chance to get accepted to Harvard and a 10% chance to get accepted to Yale (independent 10% chances, of course!) and a 10% chance to get accepted to ... the obvious solution is to apply to a *lot* of schools. In fact, with a 10% acceptance, if I apply to 10 schools, I still have a 1-in-3 chance of getting accepted to none. 10% is low right now, but I'd expect a lot more applications per school once it becomes clear that it *IS* a lottery. I don't want to have to have kids apply to 40+ schools just to be fairly certain that they get in somewhere. -Mark Roulo Won’t a lottery just encourage these students to
apply to even *MORE* schools? If I know that I have a
10% chance to get accepted to Harvard and a 10% chance
to get accepted to Yale (independent 10% chances, of
course!) and a 10% chance to get accepted to …

the obvious solution is to apply to a *lot* of schools.

In fact, with a 10% acceptance, if I apply to 10 schools,
I still have a 1-in-3 chance of getting accepted to none.

10% is low right now, but I’d expect a lot more applications
per school once it becomes clear that it *IS* a lottery.

I don’t want to have to have kids apply to 40+ schools just
to be fairly certain that they get in somewhere.

-Mark Roulo

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