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	<title>Comments on: Teachers vs. JROTC</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/02/teachers-vs-jrotc/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/02/teachers-vs-jrotc/</link>
	<description>Thinking and Linking by Joanne Jacobs</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 03:37:54 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: gbl3</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/02/teachers-vs-jrotc/#comment-31739</link>
		<dc:creator>gbl3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Mar 2007 14:22:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/02/27/teachers-vs-jrotc/#comment-31739</guid>
		<description>I wonder if the antimilitarism of the teachers might be motivated by jealously that JROTC is getting through to kids the teachers cannot reach.  My high school teachers were completely unaware of what I learned about motivating young men in the Army.  I do not mean acting like a drill sergeant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if the antimilitarism of the teachers might be motivated by jealously that JROTC is getting through to kids the teachers cannot reach.  My high school teachers were completely unaware of what I learned about motivating young men in the Army.  I do not mean acting like a drill sergeant.</p>
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		<title>By: bflora</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/02/teachers-vs-jrotc/#comment-31738</link>
		<dc:creator>bflora</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Mar 2007 06:13:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/02/27/teachers-vs-jrotc/#comment-31738</guid>
		<description>Found an interesting photo essay on Chicago&#039;s recent city-wide JROTC Drill-off with an accompanying article that had interesting information about high school graduation rates for JROTC students in Chicago:

&quot;Nearly one in five Kenwood High School students drops out, according to CPS numbers, and last year the Consortium on Chicago School Research reported that only about 30 percent students who graduate CPS enroll in four-year colleges.

ROTC students graduate at very high rates, according to Harrell, who said that 71 percent of last yearâ€™s seniors went on to post-secondary education.&quot;

http://www.methodsreporter.com/2007/02/28/high-schoolers-compete-in-chicagos-drill-championships/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Found an interesting photo essay on Chicago&#8217;s recent city-wide JROTC Drill-off with an accompanying article that had interesting information about high school graduation rates for JROTC students in Chicago:</p>
<p>&#8220;Nearly one in five Kenwood High School students drops out, according to CPS numbers, and last year the Consortium on Chicago School Research reported that only about 30 percent students who graduate CPS enroll in four-year colleges.</p>
<p>ROTC students graduate at very high rates, according to Harrell, who said that 71 percent of last yearâ€™s seniors went on to post-secondary education.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.methodsreporter.com/2007/02/28/high-schoolers-compete-in-chicagos-drill-championships/" rel="nofollow">http://www.methodsreporter.com/2007/02/28/high-schoolers-compete-in-chicagos-drill-championships/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Bill Leonard</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/02/teachers-vs-jrotc/#comment-31737</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Leonard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Mar 2007 01:28:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/02/27/teachers-vs-jrotc/#comment-31737</guid>
		<description>My experience mirrors that of Wayne Martin -- though I was a draftee, and served from 1966 through 1968, leaving the service as a specialist E5 (the equivalent of a buck sergeant.)

I would disagree that the military is &quot;just another job&quot; at some level. That is true for the Air Force, and for a great man Navy occupational specialties, although Navy people do put in time at sea, separated from home and family. In the army, it is less true, and it is not &quot;just another job&quot; at all for those in the Marines or in Army, Navy or Air Force elite units of various types.

I do believe the military is a viable alternative for a great many young men and women. What is almost neverarticulated in these discussions is that the military system is primarily aimed -- certainly in the enlisted ranks -- at young people fresh out of high school, and serving in what are, for most of us, maturing years -- about 17 to about 21.

I have observed that those who are most vocal in their anti-miltary sentiments typically are those who never have served, and who frankly have no idea what they are talking about. That of course includes those most vocal at Rossevelt High School in the issue in question. 

In my nastier moments, I think their views should get the response that is deserved. A steel-toed boot to the soft tissues is about right to start.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My experience mirrors that of Wayne Martin &#8212; though I was a draftee, and served from 1966 through 1968, leaving the service as a specialist E5 (the equivalent of a buck sergeant.)</p>
<p>I would disagree that the military is &#8220;just another job&#8221; at some level. That is true for the Air Force, and for a great man Navy occupational specialties, although Navy people do put in time at sea, separated from home and family. In the army, it is less true, and it is not &#8220;just another job&#8221; at all for those in the Marines or in Army, Navy or Air Force elite units of various types.</p>
<p>I do believe the military is a viable alternative for a great many young men and women. What is almost neverarticulated in these discussions is that the military system is primarily aimed &#8212; certainly in the enlisted ranks &#8212; at young people fresh out of high school, and serving in what are, for most of us, maturing years &#8212; about 17 to about 21.</p>
<p>I have observed that those who are most vocal in their anti-miltary sentiments typically are those who never have served, and who frankly have no idea what they are talking about. That of course includes those most vocal at Rossevelt High School in the issue in question. </p>
<p>In my nastier moments, I think their views should get the response that is deserved. A steel-toed boot to the soft tissues is about right to start.</p>
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		<title>By: gbl3</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/02/teachers-vs-jrotc/#comment-31736</link>
		<dc:creator>gbl3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Feb 2007 20:36:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/02/27/teachers-vs-jrotc/#comment-31736</guid>
		<description>I was paid twice a month.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was paid twice a month.</p>
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		<title>By: wayne martin</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/02/teachers-vs-jrotc/#comment-31735</link>
		<dc:creator>wayne martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:31:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/02/27/teachers-vs-jrotc/#comment-31735</guid>
		<description>&gt; The US military is run on a coercive, hierarchical, 
&gt; elitist, and authoritarian basis. 

During my first five minutes of Officer Training School, we were shown a slide that said:

    â€œThe US Servicemanâ€™s compliance to orders is voluntaryâ€    
     (or words to that effect). 

My experience as an Officer was that this was most true.

As to the suggestions that the US military is run on a hierarchical basis, this is trueâ€”it is the most effective way to transmit orders and information up-and-down a chain-of-command.

As to the militaryâ€™s being â€œelitistâ€, that would be hard to prove.  While most of the officers (hence the folks running the show) are college grads, NCOs (who are the backbone of the Military and responsible for all of the heavy-lifting) typically are not. Most professional organizations require a BS as a requirement for employment--so is that &quot;elitist&quot; too?

&gt; Discipline is harsh but regular.

Not since the introduction of the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) was introduced after WWII could one claim that discipline is harsh.  For the most part, most minor infractions result in an administration disciplinary action (loss of pay, sometimes a reduction in rank) at the company/ship level (basically a slap on the hand).

&gt; The US military has a certain amount of hazing.

Perhaps hazing occurs in elite units (such as Green Berets or Seals), but not in general.  Once people get out of Basic (and any other ) training, the Military becomes just another job. The only real difference (outside of combat), is that the wardrobe is yucky and folks get paid only once a month.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; The US military is run on a coercive, hierarchical,<br />
&gt; elitist, and authoritarian basis. </p>
<p>During my first five minutes of Officer Training School, we were shown a slide that said:</p>
<p>    â€œThe US Servicemanâ€™s compliance to orders is voluntaryâ€<br />
     (or words to that effect). </p>
<p>My experience as an Officer was that this was most true.</p>
<p>As to the suggestions that the US military is run on a hierarchical basis, this is trueâ€”it is the most effective way to transmit orders and information up-and-down a chain-of-command.</p>
<p>As to the militaryâ€™s being â€œelitistâ€, that would be hard to prove.  While most of the officers (hence the folks running the show) are college grads, NCOs (who are the backbone of the Military and responsible for all of the heavy-lifting) typically are not. Most professional organizations require a BS as a requirement for employment&#8211;so is that &#8220;elitist&#8221; too?</p>
<p>&gt; Discipline is harsh but regular.</p>
<p>Not since the introduction of the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) was introduced after WWII could one claim that discipline is harsh.  For the most part, most minor infractions result in an administration disciplinary action (loss of pay, sometimes a reduction in rank) at the company/ship level (basically a slap on the hand).</p>
<p>&gt; The US military has a certain amount of hazing.</p>
<p>Perhaps hazing occurs in elite units (such as Green Berets or Seals), but not in general.  Once people get out of Basic (and any other ) training, the Military becomes just another job. The only real difference (outside of combat), is that the wardrobe is yucky and folks get paid only once a month.</p>
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		<title>By: Indigo Warrior</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/02/teachers-vs-jrotc/#comment-31734</link>
		<dc:creator>Indigo Warrior</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:58:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/02/27/teachers-vs-jrotc/#comment-31734</guid>
		<description>Hypocrisy, that&#039;s all it is.

The US military doesn&#039;t draft people, and hasn&#039;t done for over 30 years.  The US public school system drafts everybody at a very young age, or at least tries to.  Some kids with supportive parents can get a deferment for being enrolled in a private school, or homeschooled,

The US military is run on a coercive, hierarchical, elitist, and authoritarian basis.  It however never claims anything to the contrary and is totally honest about it.  Discipline is harsh but regular.  The military tends to attract those people who benefit from such an environment.  The government school system claimes to be &quot;child-centered&quot; and &quot;student-centered&quot; but such centering is often based on a hypocritical elitism unrelated to educational attainment or intellectual prowess.

The US military has a certain amount of hazing.  The public school system has much more, and prides itself that its Kafkaesque social minefield somehow helps students &quot;get along with others.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hypocrisy, that&#8217;s all it is.</p>
<p>The US military doesn&#8217;t draft people, and hasn&#8217;t done for over 30 years.  The US public school system drafts everybody at a very young age, or at least tries to.  Some kids with supportive parents can get a deferment for being enrolled in a private school, or homeschooled,</p>
<p>The US military is run on a coercive, hierarchical, elitist, and authoritarian basis.  It however never claims anything to the contrary and is totally honest about it.  Discipline is harsh but regular.  The military tends to attract those people who benefit from such an environment.  The government school system claimes to be &#8220;child-centered&#8221; and &#8220;student-centered&#8221; but such centering is often based on a hypocritical elitism unrelated to educational attainment or intellectual prowess.</p>
<p>The US military has a certain amount of hazing.  The public school system has much more, and prides itself that its Kafkaesque social minefield somehow helps students &#8220;get along with others.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: NDC</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/02/teachers-vs-jrotc/#comment-31733</link>
		<dc:creator>NDC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Feb 2007 01:29:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/02/27/teachers-vs-jrotc/#comment-31733</guid>
		<description>My first two years, I taught in a school with JROTC. It was a great program at that school.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My first two years, I taught in a school with JROTC. It was a great program at that school.</p>
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		<title>By: Walter E. Wallis</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/02/teachers-vs-jrotc/#comment-31732</link>
		<dc:creator>Walter E. Wallis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Feb 2007 00:44:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/02/27/teachers-vs-jrotc/#comment-31732</guid>
		<description>Teachers who oppose JROTC should demonstrate their commitment by eschewing a government paycheck.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Teachers who oppose JROTC should demonstrate their commitment by eschewing a government paycheck.</p>
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		<title>By: NYC Educator</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/02/teachers-vs-jrotc/#comment-31731</link>
		<dc:creator>NYC Educator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Feb 2007 00:34:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/02/27/teachers-vs-jrotc/#comment-31731</guid>
		<description>Should be &quot;they&#039;re&quot; being indoctrinated.  Sometimes I horrify myself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Should be &#8220;they&#8217;re&#8221; being indoctrinated.  Sometimes I horrify myself.</p>
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		<title>By: NYC Educator</title>
		<link>http://www.joannejacobs.com/2007/02/teachers-vs-jrotc/#comment-31730</link>
		<dc:creator>NYC Educator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Feb 2007 00:33:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://joannejacobs.com/2007/02/27/teachers-vs-jrotc/#comment-31730</guid>
		<description>I have to say I had very negative feelings toward JROTC when I first saw it, very much like those who&#039;ve opposed it.  But the program in our school is one of the best I&#039;ve seen anywhere, with some of the most dedicated and helpful instructors I&#039;ve ever seen.

I call a lot of parents, but with JROTC kids, I often go to their teachers, who frighten them even more than home.  Perhaps that sounds negative, but I think it&#039;s a good thing. 

Anyone who opposes JROTC ought to take a look at the program.  It&#039;s discipline intensive, and that&#039;s great for teens.  And while I may be naive, I don&#039;t get the impression their being indoctrinated to confuse the Army with the Boy Scouts.

Personally, I&#039;d like to see more JROTC-style policies schoolwide.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to say I had very negative feelings toward JROTC when I first saw it, very much like those who&#8217;ve opposed it.  But the program in our school is one of the best I&#8217;ve seen anywhere, with some of the most dedicated and helpful instructors I&#8217;ve ever seen.</p>
<p>I call a lot of parents, but with JROTC kids, I often go to their teachers, who frighten them even more than home.  Perhaps that sounds negative, but I think it&#8217;s a good thing. </p>
<p>Anyone who opposes JROTC ought to take a look at the program.  It&#8217;s discipline intensive, and that&#8217;s great for teens.  And while I may be naive, I don&#8217;t get the impression their being indoctrinated to confuse the Army with the Boy Scouts.</p>
<p>Personally, I&#8217;d like to see more JROTC-style policies schoolwide.</p>
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