Do teachers make more?

Wayne is certainly right that fringe benefits (generous health insurance and pensions plus additional days off) are greater for teachers than for the average college grad. worker. On the other hand, teachers (except perhsps for gym) work more than their 36.5 average time in school — grading papers, writing recommendations, contacting parents, planning lessons, etc.

In any case, if we had too few internal municipal auditors , we’d raise the pay in that job category until we had enough applicants to fill the vacancies. We need to raise the pay of science teachers, math teachers, special ed teachers and some foreign language teachers — but probably not the pay of gym or history or English teachers for which there are many more applicants than job openings.

“which estimates full-time public teachers average 36.5 hours a week during the school year”

I don’t see how this is possible. At the public high school near me,
a typical day begins at 8:05 and ends at 3:25. This is a bit more than seven hours. Even assuming that the teachers get 1 hour off for lunch, this is still a six hour day. Then you need time to prepare for class and time to grade homework.

I expect that the time for 1-8 is similar, although maybe with a different breakdown (slightly less class time, but having to prepare for more subjects).

-Mark Roulo

I’ve always thought the “oh, but teachers have to do extra work at home grading papers and making lesson plans” argument was entirely weak.

What professional job DOESN’T require taking work home? There are lots and lots of us out there who put in 40 or 50 hours at the office AND another six or eight at home every week. I’ve worked at companies where salried employees routinely put in 60 hour weeks for at least part of the year.

Teachers have all summer to take courses, upgrade their skills and do other training (my father got his master’s degree during his summers off). The rest of us have to do our professional development during evenings and weekends.

“The data presented here are drawn entirely from BLS reports. All the mean hourly earnings figures reported here are for full-time workers and exclude the value of benefits such as health care, life insurance, and pensions.”

The report also then shows the effective wage rate adjusted to average annual hours of other occupations.

Not only does the amount spent between schools have a weak correlation with their educational outcomes, which teachers get the most money within schools has almost nothing to do with the outcomes of their students. It is a function of time on the job and education credits. Attracting and keeping teaching excellence into such an environment isn’t easy. Teacher’s unions prevent society from spending our money to buy the best education we can for our children.

This issue of “off-the-clock” work can not be written off as bogus, but it’s difficult to believe that all first grade teachers spend 60 hours a week in the execution of their work-related responsibilities. The question is “how much is required”, and how much is “optional”. While it’s reasonable to expect that some high-school teachers become involved in after-school sponsorships, how many actually do? Some subjects provide more opportunity for homework than others, such as math and physics. English offers the opportunity for a lot of writing, which requires some involvement by the instructor in evaluating the work. These days, however, word processors offer spelling checkers, and as we say with the on-line validation software, there are a number of ways for teachers to reduce the time required to read papers. On-line grade administration software is now available for teachers to maintain their “grade books”, and well-done, end-of-year grades could be computed and turned in to school administrators, reducing the amount of work required “off-the-clock”.

And then there is the issue of time management. There is no reason to believe that every teacher is a good time manager. Certainly many suffer from poor time management skills, just like the rest of us.

Just because someone spends 60 hours a week on a job, doesn’t mean that the job requires 60 hours a week to do. Further, one has to ask: does the pay scale reflect the understanding that some number of hours are required “off-the-clock”? This is certainly something every teacher should be able to answer, if they have taken their salary negotiations with their school district meaningfully.

I want to point out that online grade books actually often increase the time it takes to manage grades. Many teachers were already using grading programs; the online ones are often inferior in terms of ease of use and data that can be analyzed.

And although you might think that online grade books would help reduce the need to address or respond to parents’ questions, that’s not the case.

(Do you think online banking increases or decreases the amount of time spent overall on accounts? If no additional employees were hired to answer inquiries or handle technical issues, do you imagine bank employees would have more or less time to devote to customers at the bank during the work day? When would these inquires need to be addressed if bank employees were busy with other work for 5/6 of the day?)

There are many reasons why online grade programs may be a really bad idea in terms of the lessons that they teach kids and parents about grades and school, which didn’t seem as evident before online grading, but that’s a different theoretical conversation.

> And although you might think that online grade books would
> help reduce the need to address or respond to parents’ questions,
> that’s not the case.

There isn’t enough information here to understand the point. However, here’s some information from vendors of these products:

http://www.mygradebook.com/

http://www.gradebooks4teachers.com/

“This may be the most valuable investment you make this year. For ten years I taught without an electronic gradebook and I am embarrassed to admit that I spent endless hours each year calculating grades. Five years ago I discovered a simple software program and cut my grading time by 75%. I have since moved on to an even more advanced system and I can’t believe I ever did this with a pencil, paper and calculator. There are many programs to choose from, so make a choice and save yourself some time and aggravation!!” – Miranda Blair (Classroom Teacher – R. J. Lee Elementary School)

It’s possible that some teachers who are frightened by technology might claim that these sorts of tools don’t work, or are hard to use. Getting people to start using these sorts of tools with the goal in mind to reduce their work load isn’t always easy, but work load reduction can generally be demonstrated unless the nature of the job increasing in complexity because of the power of the tools.

I make $34,152 a year in my eighth year of teaching. I average a 50 hour work week, and that’s with my time off. Figure that one essay from my 140 students will take 23 hours to grade, if I spend 10 minutes per essay, reading, responding, recording grades, and organizing the paperwork to set up before and/or after school tutoring for those who need it. In eight years, I have gone from a starting salary of $25,000, through two legislature mandated raises totalling $5,000 ($2,000 one year, $3,000 most recently), one year where teachers in my district received a $100 dollar raise (for the entire year), most others where we receive between $200 and $500 raises (for the entire year). If the Manhatan Institute thinks that this is how to obtain, groom, and retain the best teachers possible, perhaps we should reexamine their ability to put together a logical study, much less execute one and interpret its meaning.
As for the collective bargaining bashers, I have not seen any merit pay programs based on how hard the teachers actually work. The ones I have seen are based primarily on test score results. Since test scores are determined more by student performance during a time period representing .01 percent of total school attendance, it makes sense that merit pay isn’t something we’re all ready to roll out the carpet for. I am in a unique position in that the classes I teach include our “top performing” students as well as our lowest performing. If merit pay were based on the first group, I’d make out like a bandit. If it were based on the latter, not so much. Ironically, it is the latter group of students who would actually require more time and effort and yet I would not be compensated for it.
The median wage in the United States is 43,318. Summers or not, does it seem correct that over half of the workers in the United States have work more valuable than mine as a teacher?
Good teachers work many more hours than this study reports, and it seems to make sense to work toward rewarding the best in the profession rather than punishing everyone for the shortcomings of a few bad apples. Perhaps the Manhattan Institute should spend more time researching where the money to pay teachers could be found in state and federal budgets and less time trying to arrange a study to prove that we’re paid too much.

> As for the collective bargaining bashers, I have not seen any merit pay programs based on how hard the teachers actually work. The ones I have seen are based primarily on test score results.

We don’t care how hard you work. You’re being paid for results. If it’s too much effort for you, perhaps you should be doing something that you’re effective at.

BTW – Do you really want to argue that ditch diggers should make more than you do? Hmm – they seem to understand that they’re not being paid for effort but for ditches dug.

If people could reach agreement about what results they wanted, teachers would be more likely to deliver them. But as things stand now, teachers are expected to be everything to everyone, and that’s hard to deliver.

Let’s review:

>>> As for the collective bargaining bashers, I have not seen any merit pay programs based on how hard the teachers actually work.

That’s a complaint that teachers don’t get paid based on how hard they work. Its author may not like that characterization, but she chose her argument.

> Andy, I don’t understand your anger and I certainly didn’t intend to evoke that type of response.

I’m not angry. I’m short-cutting a discussion that has played out numerous times.

> My issue with merit pay is not that it’s based on results, its that the examples I have seen pay on based, primarily, on tests given over two days of schooling – .01% of a school year. I’m not sure that is a good indicator of how much students have learned or accomplished or how well teachers have taught for a year.

Above is the standard “I’m all for merit pay but those methods aren’t good”. The discussion bogs after I respond with.

“Fair enough. Please propose a reasonably objective method of evaluating the difference that individual teachers make in student achievement, a method that you will accept being used to make salary and hire/fire decisions.

Yes, I realize that some students are less capable than others. Feel free to factor that into the proposed method.”

Here’s where it will end. There will be some back-and-forth, repeating that pay for results is okay, but some method is flawed (big deal – the fact that there’s a dumb way to approach a problem does not imply that there are no good ways) and a demand that I propose a method.

However, nothing more of substance will actually come out. We’ll end with “It’s okay in theory to compensate teachers based on their performance but there’s no acceptable-to-teachers implementation of that theory.”

> your comments seem based in a bitter, envious attitude,

Not at all. But, thanks for suggesting that believing that teachers should be treated like everyone else is evidence of some problem.

I didn’t realize I needed to make sure we agree on one basic tenet … free, effective education for any (at least most?) of the children in the United States who want it or have parents who want it for them enough to make them show up and take part. Yes? No? This is a serious question on my part.

Well, there are several pretty easy ways to begin to make testing a more useful measure of “results.” Currently, every state has its own test — and sets its own standards for those “basic” and “below basic” ratings, as well as those for “proficient” and “advanced.” So, a proficient kid in one state might well test as below basic in another. This is all just crazy.

Secondly, tests are given in each grade, as Debbie noted. I’d love to see some sort of ongoing testing process. That is, that a child who tested at level Z last testing session, next takes a test starting at level Z and getting progressively harder. Another child in that class might have tested at level T and would start at that point and continue on into harder material. THEN, we’d know if that teacher had actually moved any specific child ahead — and by how much. A child starting school 2-3 years behind another child who gains 2.5 years of learning in that year of schooling (pretty good, eh?) will still test out as lower — lower than grade level and lower than that other child. That level T child is likely to have progressed at least a year or more too. But, as Debbie pointed out, as tests stand now, if they tested “advanced” to start with — there’s no way to see if they just coasted the next year or if they are more advanced.

IF you could come up with this sort of testing, and made it nationally normed and required it of private school students as well. Well, then, I’d be behind your idea of merit pay for test scores. And I’m not even a teacher yet.

“Hard work isn’t rewarded. Neither is excellent work, of course.” How did I MISS that? I run into, on average, 2 former students per week who tell me how glad they are that I was their teacher and go on to share some specific example; “easy A” in freshman composition, majoring in technical writing and now working in that field, deciding to become a teacher themselves, etc. Of course there’s “the usual” daily observations of students learning a new concept, getting interested in improving their writing, gaining confidence in their ability to analyze and discuss what they read. We ARE rewarded, just not monetarily. Or at least, so I thought, until Manhattan Institute deigned to enlighten me. What a relief; and here, all this time, I thought the work I did (or, to make Andy happy, the results I got) deserved better pay.

Which reminds me … I need to tell our Pre-Engineering elective teacher to encourage his students to reconsider their goals of becoming engineers or architectures. Why do that when they could enter the so much more lucrative field of teaching? I am amazed that more editors, reporters, psychologists and chemists aren’t beating a path to the alternative certification door. Obviously, it’s one of the best-kept secrets in the world.

Debbie, I’m on your side. I take issue with statements made here that do not show a clear understanding of what is happening in our classrooms, or our schools. Most teachers stay, not because of financial gain, but because of intrinsic rewards. We talk about our pay and compensation because we have homes, cars, children to educate, and dreams, just like other people. We signed on to a profession wrought with problems, believing we could make a difference. We work day in and day out, and see our jobs being eroded by additional paperwork, additional planning, and additional administrative duties. We watch as the government adds on more and more requirements to staying in our profession, from tests and continuing education, to becoming technology experts and behavior managers.

Teachers cannot just get another job during the summer, especially if we teach at year-round schools that spread out “vacation” time throughout the year. We also have staff development, planning, and preparation time during these “vacations,” so our time off is strictly limited. Also, I am required to stay after school for meetings, conferences, and other school functions. Since most parents work, I must be available when they get off work. I’ve been at school since 7 a.m., and I’m staying until 8 or 9 p.m. two to three nights a week. Frequently parents do not show, do not call and the meeting has to be rescheduled, requiring me to stay another night. By the time I finish all the conferences, it’s almost time to start them again.

We don’t get normal “vacation time,” sick days, or personal days at my school like my husband does at his job. One school system I worked for actually docked my pay for my substitute when I was sick! I do not get a lunch minute, forget a lunch hour. My class eats in our classroom, and I heat their food in a tiny microwave because we do not have a lunch program or cafeteria. We do not have music or art teachers, so I integrate these specialized subjects into my lessons. These subjects require specialized skills which I do not possess.

I admire first grade teachers; they have an enormous load to bear. These amazing people teach your children how to read, probably the single most important skill they will learn in their life. First grade teachers take tiny 5 and 6 year old children whose knowledge may or may not include their alphabet and basic sounds, and turn them into little happy readers. If you have never witnessed this, you need to go to your nearest first grade class and spend several months observing what goes on. It is utterly amazing. The amount of preparation it takes to do this for 20 or so kids who are all on different levels, requiring separate plans for each child, is just short of phenomenal.

In my fourth grade class I have students who are still learning to read basic sight words, and students who can read anything I put in front of them. I have students who cannot learn math unless they are moving, and students who are ready for high school algebra. I have a student who can create the most well written essay you could hope to read, except she cannot control her fingers well enough to write on a piece of paper.

Not only do children come to school with varying abilities, they come to school with various learning styles that have to be addressed. I have to teach each lesson to reach eight different ways of learning, which is why I spend eight to ten hours every weekend working on planning and preparation. I have to create most of my materials, due to lack of textbooks. I spend about $2500 of my own money each year supplementing my classroom in one way or another.

Another problem we face in schools is students who come to school hungry, exhausted, abused, and neglected. I’ve bought students school supplies, clothing, and food. I’ve provided transportation when a student’s parent couldn’t come because they didn’t have a car seat for an infant sibling. I’ve stayed at school until 7:30 at night when the family of three students “forgot” who was supposed to pick them up, and didn’t answer their phones when I called.

The comment about teachers being afraid of technology is ludicrous. We are required to become competent in using technology as part of our preparation. We were required to use grading software in the schools in my district. The grading software had bugs in it and routinely crashed just before report cards were due. To compensate for that possibility, we had to keep double books, so I’m sure you can imagine what a time saving device that turned out to be.

I agree with Debbie’s observation that the critics of paying teachers a fair salary seem bitter and angry. (Ok, at least irritated and frustrated). I wonder why education seems to be the focus of their criticism when there are so many other government programs that suck the coffers dry with even fewer benefits. Why do there seem to be so many negative comments made about education, when there are so many shining examples of good teaching, like Debbie’s example? There are plenty of schools in our country that use their money wisely, that make sound educational and financial decisions that enhance student learning, and that serve their communities well. Let’s have a more positive focus, maybe we will have more positive outcomes.

i have a question and this appears to be a good place in which to ask it. i would like to teach as a profession and i am debating on being a gym teacher or a math teacher. i was just wondering if pay rates are typically different between these two fields say in your first year of teaching, 5th year, 10th year, etc. i would greatly appreciate as much information as possible. thank you for your time and consideration.